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Phoenix ball balancing?
  #1  
Old 11-03-2014, 10:30 AM
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Phoenix ball balancing?

Rummaging around youtube, I found some videos from a place called Phoenix Ball Balancing. They don't seem to really match anything the popular forces have been teaching.

Here is just an example:




Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #2  
Old 11-03-2014, 12:10 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Ruh Roh.............

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Old 11-03-2014, 12:14 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

lol
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
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Old 11-03-2014, 01:10 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Look at dat mean hook!

Who needs E.A.R.L when you have a ramp, a camera, and 20 minutes to spare!

For those not familiar with E.A.R.L look below.

http://www.bowl.com/Equipment_Specs/..._L__the_Robot/
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #5  
Old 11-03-2014, 03:17 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

goes to show, weights do matter....if it takes a ball that much time to get down the lane

The ball comparison was interesting though. The block is placed on the same plane. Who else wants to try this???

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  #6  
Old 11-03-2014, 04:30 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

I am .... speechless, which many people think is a good thing.

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Old 11-03-2014, 04:41 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Because we know when we drill holes in a ball, that the only thing that changes is static weights.
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Old 11-03-2014, 06:39 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Thats were I bowl at. The gentleman talking and I are good friends. Do I agree with everything he says no.

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Old 11-03-2014, 06:40 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Looking at their software (which is high priced) it's all based on the old Compubalance system from back in the early 90's.

http://www.phoenixballbalancing.com/default.asp

Their layout tool is kind neat looking, But $275???


Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #10  
Old 08-09-2017, 05:46 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
Rummaging around youtube, I found some videos from a place called Phoenix Ball Balancing. They don't seem to really match anything the popular forces have been teaching.
Ummmm. these guys were around way before the 'Popular forces' knew all they proclaim!

Oh......soo.......according to the followers of Mo Pinel/USBC.....static weights are meaningless & can be ignored.......BUT here they now mean everything?? Sorry, Jack, can't have it both ways!!

The BMS Ball Motion Study was/is NOT exhaustive & WAS heavily influenced by those present & had a hand in the way it was conducted & therefore the conclusions drawn. Namely MO P. Sorry that's a biased outcome. Where is the counterpoints in that study, namely those who til this day argue that statics DO mean 'Something'????? That USBC study is not concluded, all inclusive, finalized.
To make a decision before ALL testing is done on ALL aspects of ball weighting, dynamics etc. is foolhardy at best. Just my opinion>>....

So which is it?

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #11  
Old 08-09-2017, 07:33 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagonman View Post
Ummmm. these guys were around way before the 'Popular forces' knew all they proclaim!

Oh......soo.......according to the followers of Mo Pinel/USBC.....static weights are meaningless & can be ignored.......BUT here they now mean everything?? Sorry, Jack, can't have it both ways!!

The BMS Ball Motion Study was/is NOT exhaustive & WAS heavily influenced by those present & had a hand in the way it was conducted & therefore the conclusions drawn. Namely MO P. Sorry that's a biased outcome. Where is the counterpoints in that study, namely those who til this day argue that statics DO mean 'Something'????? That USBC study is not concluded, all inclusive, finalized.
To make a decision before ALL testing is done on ALL aspects of ball weighting, dynamics etc. is foolhardy at best. Just my opinion>>....

So which is it?
^^^Exactly^^^

Now if anyone would like to take full advantage of the static weight limitations the USBC has provided us, the GBS Gravity Balance System is the Holy Grail. I've been working on a complete, digital redesign, with a GBS APP to follow soon. Here's a teaser...
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #12  
Old 08-10-2017, 12:28 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Respectfully, I believe, core orientation far outweighs static weights in terms of ball reaction.

The illustration shows examples of what the core would look like when the pin is placed in various locations in relation to the center of grip.

All balls weigh zero on a static scale.
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #13  
Old 08-10-2017, 02:37 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomaHawk View Post
Respectfully, I believe, core orientation far outweighs static weights in terms of ball reaction.

The illustration shows examples of what the core would look like when the pin is placed in various locations in relation to the center of grip.

All balls weigh zero on a static scale.
TomaHawk, never said core orientation doesn't come before Static Weights and/or Ending CG location. What I am saying, is if you want maximum potential for whatever desired layout you choose, the GBS Gravity Balance System will give you that. Whether it's 2, 5, or 10%+ in horsepower, if you're looking for that EXTRA edge, this is how you get it.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #14  
Old 08-10-2017, 09:56 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

GBS Gravity Balance System


Last edited by RevZiLLa; 08-10-2017 at 06:04 PM.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #15  
Old 08-10-2017, 10:04 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Buzzsaw View Post
TomaHawk, never said core orientation doesn't come before Static Weights and/or Ending CG location. What I am saying, is if you want maximum potential for whatever desired layout you choose, the GBS Gravity Balance System will give you that. Whether it's 2, 5, or 10%+ in horsepower, if you're looking for that EXTRA edge, this is how you get it.
Thanks for explaining that. A lot of people were under the assumption that your philosophy was based solely on the merit of static weights.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #16  
Old 08-10-2017, 10:29 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagonman View Post
Ummmm. these guys were around way before the 'Popular forces' knew all they proclaim!
This isnt a case of who gets there first is correct

Quote:
Oh......soo.......according to the followers of Mo Pinel/USBC.....static weights are meaningless & can be ignored.......BUT here they now mean everything?? Sorry, Jack, can't have it both ways!!
I never heard Mo say that they are meaningless. He has said this

http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=298

NO BATTLE! STATIC WEIGHTS ARE APPROXIMATELY 1% OF BALL MOTION. PURDUEPAUL DID THE MATHEMATICAL PROOF IN A POST! IT'S JUST MATH!

Quote:
The BMS Ball Motion Study was/is NOT exhaustive & WAS heavily influenced by those present & had a hand in the way it was conducted & therefore the conclusions drawn. Namely MO P. Sorry that's a biased outcome. Where is the counterpoints in that study, namely those who til this day argue that statics DO mean 'Something'????? That USBC study is not concluded, all inclusive, finalized.
To make a decision before ALL testing is done on ALL aspects of ball weighting, dynamics etc. is foolhardy at best. Just my opinion>>....

So which is it?
So you are questing the integrity of Mo Pinel, Paul Ridenour, Del Warren and others that were part of this study? Do you believe that fudged or reported incorrect data that was supplied by CATS?

I understand things change, instead of CATS, we now have SPECTRO that is more accurate when recording ball motion. We have bowlers ID that can read what the ball is doing while it is going down the lane. This might help get a more specific number of what different parts of the ball influence ball motion.

The only rebutal that has been researched besides wasted breath is the white noise effect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6lSV9SKg3A . As described in the description....

6lbs plastic ball, pancake weight block
Statics: 5.875 oz bottom, 3.75 oz side, 3.75 oz finger

A phenomenon known as "white noise", is something that will make you look twice, as you may have never seen this before.
Video produced to validate current static weight limitations.
This is caused by the static imbalance being a significant percentage of total ball weight.


At this point, I tell people to believe what they want to believe, because of Mo was wrong, there are many people with the other ball manufacturers that would LOVE to prove him wrong and make it public. That has not happened.
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:28 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Just a comment about Phoenix Ball Balancing.

A few years back I was looking up info on the old Compubalance program, which lead to Phoenix who had it and updated it some. It'swas all pretty much all based on static weights to layout a ball then.

(They lowered the price some few years back it was $400 now it's down to $79.)

Looking through their info on the old site, I found where they kind of explained their ideas about how a ball should be layed out.

Their basic idea was modern bowling balls are too hard for people to control.

Why? Because of "Flare". Flare makes balls react erratically ..

So their system would fix that, by essentially drilling all the guts ( flare ) out of a ball.

Here's one of their videos, they took a Asym ball and removed all the flare. Watch how it doesn't flare off the PAP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8-n14SOME




"In a dynamically balanced bowling ball, the axis of roll migrates during the ball's roll, but the PAP remains the same point on the ball, Watch as this ball with an asymmetric core displays a consistent trajectory and keeps the same PAP during all three phases of the trajectory."

Just to note in some later stuff they do say you (and their software) can layout a ball to flare if you want too.

But on the old site they pretty much said most regular (ie: league bowlers) didn't need balls that flared.

Or as RM of Phoenix said recently "I prefer to get the roll that I give a ball, so my equipment is always drilled axis weight-axis balance."

Last edited by bowlingmojo; 08-10-2017 at 12:02 PM.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
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Old 08-10-2017, 12:00 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

People need to remember, in order to create side weight, the core must be shifted. Once the core has been placed off center, the dynamics of the core will have changed. Ball motion will also change.

To say, static weights have little to do with ball reaction is a simplistic statement. If a ball has, let's say, 2oz. of side weight after drilling, a hole will need to be placed in the ball. We are only allowed 1oz. by USBC standards. How we go about removing excessive side weight will also change the rolling characteristics of the ball.

Should we drill a large hole or small hole? Where should the hole be placed?

The target is not to have more the 1oz. of finger, thumb, or side. It's how we get there that really matters.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #19  
Old 08-10-2017, 12:23 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlingmojo View Post
Just a comment about Phoenix Ball Balancing.

A few years back I was looking up info on the old Compubalance program, which lead to Phoenix who had it and updated it some. It'swas all pretty much all based on static weights to layout a ball then.

(They lowered the price some few years back it was $400 now it's down to $79.)

Looking through their info on the old site, I found where they kind of explained their ideas about how a ball should be layed out.

Their basic idea was modern bowling balls are too hard for people to control.

Why? Because of "Flare". Flare makes balls react erratically ..

So their system would fix that, by essentially drilling all the guts ( flare ) out of a ball.

Here's one of their videos, they took a Asym ball and removed all the flare. Watch how it doesn't flare off the PAP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8-n14SOME




"In a dynamically balanced bowling ball, the axis of roll migrates during the ball's roll, but the PAP remains the same point on the ball, Watch as this ball with an asymmetric core displays a consistent trajectory and keeps the same PAP during all three phases of the trajectory."

Just to note in some later stuff they do say you (and their software) can layout a ball to flare if you want too.

But on the old site they pretty much said most regular (ie: league bowlers) didn't need balls that flared.

Or as RM of Phoenix said recently "I prefer to get the roll that I give a ball, so my equipment is always drilled axis weight-axis balance."
1) He throws the ball very poorly.

Nice release!

2) It doesnt look like the lanes were oiled past 30 feet

3) The ball flare, you can see the pap migration after the ball goes from hook to roll
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:30 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Here's a quote from the USBC Ball Motion Study, as reported by J_w73 in BowlingChat.net...

"Ball A is the positive center of gravity ball, ball B is the negative center of gravity ball. It is worth noting that although the two graphs line up at the beginning with each other, the negative center of gravity ball takes four feet longer to start its hook phase compared to the positive center of gravity ball.
From the ball motion study, USBC studies 20 different variables in terms of ball motion, shown in the chart below. Notable on the chart is that the positive center of gravity ball was the maximum in 14 categories compared to four for the negative center of gravity ball with two ties.
Some key statistics from this test are that the positive center of gravity ball is two boards stronger on the back end in the oil than the negative center of gravity ball and the positive CG ball is a foot and a quarter sooner than the negative CG ball."

This says that the positive weight ball starts its hook phase 4 ft sooner and is 2 boards stronger..
In a game where a 35 ft pattern(cheetah) is fairly easy to hook on and get to the pocket
but adding 8 ft to the pattern makes the shot far more difficult (shark 43 ft) I would say a hook that starts 4 ft earlier would be very beneficial..

Ball motion is one thing, ball carry is completely another. This is why the GBS System is the Holy Grail of ball drilling. It enhances to the max, whatever core angle you pick for your layout, giving you optimum performance.

As a professional ball driller, I want to suck out every possible bit of energy I can get out of a drilling, because 1 more strike in a 3 game set could mean an extra 21 pins, or a 7 pin increase on your average. Who wouldn't want that..? Other ball drillers won't put in the EXTRA effort, stopping before the ball is Gravity Balanced, saying THIS IS GOOD ENOUGH, HERE'S YOUR BALL. Any bowler who is in competition and/or playing to win money, will have no qualms about paying an extra $20 to have their ball Gravity Balanced. Why, because they will end up making more money with the added strike potential. Plus, this is a great opportunity for pro shops to add on a sale. So as a pro shop, why take money out of your pocket as well..?

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #21  
Old 08-10-2017, 02:42 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Mo is designing cores so as not to disturb the core, preserving the integrity of the intended core design. Therefore, the argument about putting a balance hole in the ball to "intentionally" change the shape of the core, HAS NO MERIT. Funny thing is, the Diamond Core was shaped from the beginning to create minimal disturbance from drilling

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #22  
Old 08-10-2017, 05:09 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Buzzsaw View Post
Mo is designing cores so as not to disturb the core, preserving the integrity of the intended core design. Therefore, the argument about putting a balance hole in the ball to "intentionally" change the shape of the core, HAS NO MERIT. Funny thing is, the Diamond Core was shaped from the beginning to create minimal disturbance from drilling
Guess that shoots down the double thumb drill pattern Mo so affectionately loves

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #23  
Old 08-10-2017, 06:12 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Buzzsaw View Post
Mo is designing cores so as not to disturb the core, preserving the integrity of the intended core design. Therefore, the argument about putting a balance hole in the ball to "intentionally" change the shape of the core, HAS NO MERIT. Funny thing is, the Diamond Core was shaped from the beginning to create minimal disturbance from drilling
This is why I cant stand you sometimes.

Mo CREATES cores so the numbers can change when you drill into them. That is why he post numbers on every drill sheet of after drilling diffs.

The reason he created the fixes. Depending on where the holes intersect the core, it can keep the numbers in the symmetrical world, or have it behave more like an asymmetrical.

Please do not comment on someones work unless you know or understand it.
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
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Old 08-10-2017, 08:23 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Meno, if you want different numbers, then buy a different ball. Pro shop owners and/or bowlers are not ball designers thinking, I want this shape core so I can put a hole here to change the intended shape of the core, who thinks like that..? It's mostly all bs.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #25  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:21 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Buzz, it has always been my opinion, the dynamic spinning (balanced or imbalanced) properties of a bowling ball has more influence than static. But, I can see, where combining dynamic and static could prove to be beneficial. It would be critical to understand, how and when, statics would become a factor as the ball rolls down a lane.

Is that the type of formula you are working on?

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:49 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Buzzsaw View Post
Meno, if you want different numbers, then buy a different ball. Pro shop owners and/or bowlers are not ball designers thinking, I want this shape core so I can put a hole here to change the intended shape of the core, who thinks like that..? It's mostly all bs.
You do realize that in your GBS video your are focused on trying to put the ending CG location 3 3/8's from the bowlers PAP and add a flare decreasing weight hole in a random location to do so.......versus using a layout and cg location to put a weight hole 3 3/8"s from the bowlers PAP.

The weight hole will have a bigger affect on the ball reaction then the CG location/static weight. So using a bigger influencing factor to try and position a lesser factor doesn't seem logical. Its the equivalent of saying I think it would be cool to have this random logo on my PAP and will sacrifice the balls pin to PAP placement to make it happen.
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #27  
Old 08-11-2017, 05:28 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomaHawk View Post
Buzz, it has always been my opinion, the dynamic spinning (balanced or imbalanced) properties of a bowling ball has more influence than static. But, I can see, where combining dynamic and static could prove to be beneficial. It would be critical to understand, how and when, statics would become a factor as the ball rolls down a lane.

Is that the type of formula you are working on?
First thing which is mostly overlooked, the heavy spot on the ball, becomes dynamic once the ball is in motion. Same goes for cores, they are not dynamic until put in motion. Therefore, static weights are only static, when the ball is sitting in the scale. Once the ball is rolling/spinning down the lane, static weights become dynamic.

Basically there's 2 weights in the ball, one is the Pin and/or the Core, the other is the Ending Mass/Center of Gravity. What the GBS Gravity Balance system teaches you, is how to manipulate the Ending CG, so it is in balance with the angle, so as to work together, rather than fighting against each other, in order to get maximum potential out of your desired layout.

So to answer your question, I would say this IS the formula.

I just finished revamping the GBS System, making it digital, as well as updating it to current levels. I'm working on turning this into an APP for easy use,which will take a couple of months to complete.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #28  
Old 08-11-2017, 06:33 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignitebowling View Post
You do realize that in your GBS video your are focused on trying to put the ending CG location 3 3/8's from the bowlers PAP and add a flare decreasing weight hole in a random location to do so.......versus using a layout and cg location to put a weight hole 3 3/8"s from the bowlers PAP.

The weight hole will have a bigger affect on the ball reaction then the CG location/static weight. So using a bigger influencing factor to try and position a lesser factor doesn't seem logical. Its the equivalent of saying I think it would be cool to have this random logo on my PAP and will sacrifice the balls pin to PAP placement to make it happen.
When drilling a ball and/or picking out a particular layout, we're not always trying to max out flare

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #29  
Old 08-11-2017, 06:59 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Buzzsaw View Post
When drilling a ball and/or picking out a particular layout, we're not always trying to max out flare
Agreed, many people hear flare decreasing and think less hook vs ball/hook shape.

Still from the video I've seen above it uses a weight hole as a means to an end for the cg location as it's relevance. The weight hole being the larger contributing factor vs the cg location.
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
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Old 08-11-2017, 11:11 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Still from the video I've seen above it uses a weight hole as a means to an end for the cg location as it's relevance. The weight hole being the larger contributing factor vs the cg location.
The weight hole in of itself, does not override the ending center of gravity, nor does the weight hole at 3 3/8" from your PAP always increases flare.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #31  
Old 08-12-2017, 12:45 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Buzzsaw View Post
The weight hole in of itself, does not override the ending center of gravity, nor does the weight hole at 3 3/8" from your PAP always increases flare.

Never said putting a weight hole 3 3/8" from the PAP always increased flare. Re-read what is written.

Only that I'd be more interested in a weight 3 3/8"s from a bowlers PAP then the CG. In the grand scheme of things for trying something I'd have the weight hole 6 3/4" from the pin and 3 3/8" from the PAP.

Granted if using a small weight hole to achieve your GBS is used the weight hole has no affect on ball reaction. But if having to drill a larger weight hole that removes part of the core to place the CG in a specific location while ignoring the weight hole other then to achieve said CG location just doesn't seem smart.

I'm guessing if you had access to throw bot type equipment you would use it to prove your point. Since that isn't an option surely someone with access to Blueprint/CAD style software can use it to show the computer calculated affects of such a system. Or worst case scenario someone can download the free trial ware and do this test.
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #32  
Old 08-12-2017, 02:58 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignitebowling View Post
Never said putting a weight hole 3 3/8" from the PAP always increased flare. Re-read what is written.

Only that I'd be more interested in a weight 3 3/8"s from a bowlers PAP then the CG. In the grand scheme of things for trying something I'd have the weight hole 6 3/4" from the pin and 3 3/8" from the PAP.

Granted if using a small weight hole to achieve your GBS is used the weight hole has no affect on ball reaction. But if having to drill a larger weight hole that removes part of the core to place the CG in a specific location while ignoring the weight hole other then to achieve said CG location just doesn't seem smart.

I'm guessing if you had access to throw bot type equipment you would use it to prove your point. Since that isn't an option surely someone with access to Blueprint/CAD style software can use it to show the computer calculated affects of such a system. Or worst case scenario someone can download the free trial ware and do this test.
What I took out of what you wrote, was that placing the hole at 3 3/8" increases the flare, but correct me if I'm wrong..?

Fyi, I did ball testing before computers. If you place the pin in your axis, using a perfect "pin in" ball, placing the hole at 3 3/8" from your PAP has ZERO effect on flare. But, the static weight change has a great effect, vs placing the hole on your PAP

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #33  
Old 08-12-2017, 08:07 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Buzz, out of curiosity, are you familiar with Bill Tucker's WHEEL static balancing system?

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #34  
Old 08-12-2017, 08:29 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomaHawk View Post
Buzz, out of curiosity, are you familiar with Bill Tucker's WHEEL static balancing system?
That rung a bell!

The flogging of the GBS horse and Tucker got mentioned in this thread:

Lane #1 Gravity Balance System Seminar Video
http://www.bowlingballexchange.com/s...ad.php?t=63214

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #35  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:33 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Never heard of Bill Tucker or his Wheel system. Once you learn how to move and control the ending cg, there's nothing else to learn about it. The GBS teaches how to control it, moving it anywhere in on the ball you'd like, so what else is there to learn about statics..?

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #36  
Old 08-12-2017, 09:44 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Ignite, going back to your 3 3/8" hole from your PAP, I once did a Leverage weight layout in a grey U-Dot, using a 3 3/8" hole on top of the 45 core position, where the ball ended up 0-0-0. Ball flared a ton, worked well on a lit of oil, but other than that, it was tough to use FOR ME. Now using the same layout, but a different hole location to move the ending cg back to its original location of a 45 rotation, the ball rolls much different. Same goes for moving the ending cg to the PAP, it's another different reaction, even though the core position hasn't changed.

Having said all that, now if you drill 2 balls identical, same core angle, same balance hole location, same ending side weight, if one ball has a different starting top weight, those 2 balls will not roll the same. But, if you move the hole on the second ball, ending with identical S, F & Top weight, both balls will react nearly identical, even though the balance holes are in different locations.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #37  
Old 08-12-2017, 11:16 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Buzzsaw View Post
Ignite, going back to your 3 3/8" hole from your PAP, I once did a Leverage weight layout in a grey U-Dot, using a 3 3/8" hole on top of the 45 core position, where the ball ended up 0-0-0. Ball flared a ton, worked well on a lit of oil, but other than that, it was tough to use FOR ME. Now using the same layout, but a different hole location to move the ending cg back to its original location of a 45 rotation, the ball rolls much different. Same goes for moving the ending cg to the PAP, it's another different reaction, even though the core position hasn't changed.

Having said all that, now if you drill 2 balls identical, same core angle, same balance hole location, same ending side weight, if one ball has a different starting top weight, those 2 balls will not roll the same. But, if you move the hole on the second ball, ending with identical S, F & Top weight, both balls will react nearly identical, even though the balance holes are in different locations.

It could easily be demonstrated on a pair of DIFFerence, Cranker, Pro-v or Typhoons.

Or drill two with one having same pin placements and 1 oz positive side weight and 1 oz negative side weight to compare reactions. Then drill a weight hole on the 1 oz positive side weight ball till you have 1 oz negative side weight and compare all three.
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #38  
Old 08-13-2017, 12:01 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Buzzsaw View Post
Ignite, going back to your 3 3/8" hole from your PAP, I once did a Leverage weight layout in a grey U-Dot, using a 3 3/8" hole on top of the 45 core position, where the ball ended up 0-0-0. Ball flared a ton, worked well on a lit of oil, but other than that, it was tough to use FOR ME. Now using the same layout, but a different hole location to move the ending cg back to its original location of a 45 rotation, the ball rolls much different. Same goes for moving the ending cg to the PAP, it's another different reaction, even though the core position hasn't changed.

Having said all that, now if you drill 2 balls identical, same core angle, same balance hole location, same ending side weight, if one ball has a different starting top weight, those 2 balls will not roll the same. But, if you move the hole on the second ball, ending with identical S, F & Top weight, both balls will react nearly identical, even though the balance holes are in different locations.
In my experience, if the target weight is 0 x 0 x 0 and the weight holes are in the P1 location versus a P3 location, there definitely is a physical / visual difference in how the ball plays on a lane. In an extreme case, I personally threw a ball that had a P4 hole, statics were similar to other stuff I'd rolled. The ball was a "Pro Pin". There was absolutely no comparison as to how that ball responded when compared to other equipment with similar statics.

It really would be nice to see a side by side comparison showing your findings.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #39  
Old 08-13-2017, 01:43 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomaHawk View Post
In my experience, if the target weight is 0 x 0 x 0 and the weight holes are in the P1 location versus a P3 location, there definitely is a physical / visual difference in how the ball plays on a lane. In an extreme case, I personally threw a ball that had a P4 hole, statics were similar to other stuff I'd rolled. The ball was a "Pro Pin". There was absolutely no comparison as to how that ball responded when compared to other equipment with similar statics.

It really would be nice to see a side by side comparison showing your findings.
That's because the balls were different to start, one was a long pin and the other was not. The long pin starts with the core more off center, so it's more out of balance to begin with. Do your comparison with 2 balls that are similar pin out, but different starting top weights, like 1 - 1 1/2 oz. difference in top. Then see if you can tell the difference..?

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #40  
Old 08-13-2017, 01:48 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignitebowling View Post
It could easily be demonstrated on a pair of DIFFerence, Cranker, Pro-v or Typhoons.

Or drill two with one having same pin placements and 1 oz positive side weight and 1 oz negative side weight to compare reactions. Then drill a weight hole on the 1 oz positive side weight ball till you have 1 oz negative side weight and compare all three.
It's more difficult now for me to do ball demonstrations, because I can't really bowl anymore, due to my leg/ankle issue.

But physics is physics, if you have weight/mass in the ball on one side, vs the other, it will have different reactions.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #41  
Old 08-13-2017, 01:53 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

It's easy enough to find another bowler to take your place and you can do the commentary for said ball reactions.
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #42  
Old 08-13-2017, 02:00 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignitebowling View Post
It could easily be demonstrated on a pair of DIFFerence, Cranker, Pro-v or Typhoons.

Or drill two with one having same pin placements and 1 oz positive side weight and 1 oz negative side weight to compare reactions. Then drill a weight hole on the 1 oz positive side weight ball till you have 1 oz negative side weight and compare all three.
Brunswick's own static weight video showed there was a big difference between same pin location, one with positive side, the other with negative, even though Brunswick tried to claim they were identical. The positive weight ball hooked more than the negative, going high 2 shots in a row towards the end. But, when switching back to the negative side on the last shot, the negative side held pocket for a strike, instead of going Brooklyn, like it should've with positive weight.

So now put a hole on the track side of the ball, bringing it back to positive and I guarantee the reaction will be different than when the ball had negative..? It quite possibly will roll the same as the positive ball, but it also could roll different, due to 2 completely different core angles, even though the statics are the same.

That video would also suggest that dual angle drillings mean nothing, correct..? Seems really contradictory to me, right, because in that video, Brunswick is saying core angle means nothing, right..? So which is it, is Brunswick wrong..?

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #43  
Old 08-13-2017, 02:10 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignitebowling View Post
It's easy enough to find another bowler to take your place and you can do the commentary for said ball reactions.
When I actually did a video myself, explaining the difference between positive and negative side, everyone blasted me because they said I didn't throw the ball the same or whatever. No matter what I do or say, people are going to get their panties in a bunch about it and shoot me down. But, I can certainly try again, I guess..? Another thing to remember is lane conditions play a big part. If there's not much friction, you won't see any difference in statics, as both balls will go relatively straight. When the lanes dry out and you have to swing the ball, that's when you'll really see the difference between the two.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #44  
Old 08-13-2017, 11:09 AM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

In Brunswicks video we see 2 1/8 oz pos it I've side weight vs 5/8 negative side weight.

In shots 6/7 that are positive the ball goes high leaving the 6/10 and in shot 8 with the negative sideweight the ball goes high tripping the 4/7/10 to strike.

So we see a difference when using a ball 1 1/8" over what is legal in side weight compared to a ball the has 5/8 negative side weight when thrown precisely by a machine.

Doesn't prove positive side weight hits harder, or carries better. Only it can create a few more boards differences if the ball has illegal positive side weight.

And according to usbc if you add enough positive side weight you can create a 4th ball phase.
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #45  
Old 08-13-2017, 12:23 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Nobody is saying positive side weight hits harder or carries better. As a matter of fact, the positive side weight ball only struck 2 out of 4 shots, while the negative side ball atruck 4 out of 4.

We don't need the USBC to tell us there is a 4th phase, that's already been known for years. The real 4 phases of ball motion go like this...skid(slide), roll, hook then roll out. Now if you add enough negative side weight, which would be illegal, you may encounter a 5th phase, which the ball will then begin hooking in the opposite direction.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #46  
Old 08-13-2017, 01:32 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

I believe in your gbs video you discuss in the beginning how to get "maximizing potential" out of a bowling ball including "hitting power".

At the end you discuss with the GBS how with positive side weight/cg location relative to the bowlers pap or on the bowlers pap you can create more length and more back end.
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:36 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignitebowling View Post
I believe in your gbs video you discuss in the beginning how to get "maximizing potential" out of a bowling ball including "hitting power".

At the end you discuss with the GBS how with positive side weight/cg location relative to the bowlers pap or on the bowlers pap you can create more length and more back end.
Sometimes, striking power is confused with hitting power.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #48  
Old 08-13-2017, 04:46 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

The bowling industry as a whole seems predicated on agendas to create sells followed by facts as needed. It consistently blurs the line depending on the objective at the time.
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #49  
Old 08-14-2017, 01:00 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignitebowling View Post
I believe in your gbs video you discuss in the beginning how to get "maximizing potential" out of a bowling ball including "hitting power".

At the end you discuss with the GBS how with positive side weight/cg location relative to the bowlers pap or on the bowlers pap you can create more length and more back end.
Yes, for whichever layout is chosen, the GBS System will maximize the potential of that particular layout, which includes hitting power. One thing to remember, is that if the layout chosen is wrong for that particular lane condition, you will not be maximizing your pin carry and/or hitting power.

Yes, weight on your PAP will generate more length and more backend, if the condition allows for it, i.e. lighter oil amounts and/or oil not carried down too far on the backend. This is the Laws of Physics, whereas weight/mass farther away from your track, i.e. extending out along the arm of your axis of rotation, delays the roll and/or the change of direction.

And because the change of direction is delayed the longest, it will have the most continual motion on the backend, covering the most ground in the shortest amount of time.

These are all laws of physics the bowling industry doesn't want you to know.

Re: Phoenix ball balancing?
  #50  
Old 08-14-2017, 01:41 PM
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Re: Phoenix ball balancing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Buzzsaw View Post
Yes, for whichever layout is chosen, the GBS System will maximize the potential of that particular layout, which includes hitting power. One thing to remember, is that if the layout chosen is wrong for that particular lane condition, you will not be maximizing your pin carry and/or hitting power.

Yes, weight on your PAP will generate more length and more backend, if the condition allows for it, i.e. lighter oil amounts and/or oil not carried down too far on the backend. This is the Laws of Physics, whereas weight/mass farther away from your track, i.e. extending out along the arm of your axis of rotation, delays the roll and/or the change of direction.

And because the change of direction is delayed the longest, it will have the most continual motion on the backend, covering the most ground in the shortest amount of time.

These are all laws of physics the bowling industry doesn't want you to know.
Storm/Roto Grip, EBI, Motiv has masters degrees earned in engineering, and math, and they all agree on what influences ball motion....

but for some reason, they dont understand the laws of physics like you do? Do you have a degree in any related field? I honestly dont know.
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