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Rules question - some interpretation please!
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Old 06-11-2017, 02:51 PM
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Rules question - some interpretation please!

Ok all-

No tournament name or location will be given, but I will give the particulars of the potential issue. Treat it as a hypothetical.

Tournament is a singles/doubles/teams, and all entries are entered for both scratch and handicap. Obviously you only cash once per event (no cashing scratch and handicap in the same event). There is no declaration of division.

The tournament sees the majority of entires are below the 220 average for handicap. The published prize ratio is 1-5. The prize fund is distributed as follows:

Say there are 1000 entries in singles. Because the tournament sees abut 85% handicap entries, they take the opportunity 850 handicap scores and the top 150 scratch scores, eliminating duplicates (higher finish spot cashes). They then pay down 1-5, awarding 170 spots to handicap and 30 to scratch. This equals about a 1-3 and 1-17 payout ratio respectively.

USBC rule 308 states:

USBC may, at its discretion, require a bond or in lieu thereof, a satisfactory assurance that the prize fund obligations will be met.
The following prize fund requirements apply, unless otherwise provided by tournament rule:
a. The last-place prize, including those paid for each last place tie, must be equal to at least the amount of the prize fee in the event.
b. In team, doubles and singles events there shall be at least one prize for each 10 entries or major fraction thereof.
c. When there are 100 or more entries in an event or division of an event, rst place or the amount spent from the prize fund for a rst-place prize, shall not exceed 40 percent of the total prize fund. Second place must be equal to at least one-half of rst place or the amount spent from the prize fund for rst place.

Based on 308b, is this a legal payout ratio? If it isn't, what recourse is there besides a formal protest?

Thanks everyone! I appreciate and respect everyone's opinion on this!!

Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!
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Old 06-11-2017, 05:46 PM
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!

If this is a USBC sanctioned tournament, the rule applies, unless, as stated in the rule, there is a tournament rule that is different.
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!
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Old 06-11-2017, 07:01 PM
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!

Yeah, published rules only state ratio of 1-5, and that last cash will win their entry fee back. No other provisions. And yes, this is USBC sanctioned.

Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!
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Old 06-11-2017, 07:44 PM
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!

If they actually pay 1 in 5, that is twice what the rule requires at 1 in 10. Getting your entry fee back for last place is more than the prize fee portion of the entry.
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:59 PM
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!

Sorry, I might not have been clear. The scratch prize fund pays about 1-17, handicap pays about 1-3, for each event.

So singles scratch pays 1-17, handicap pays 1-3, but for the singles event, it pays 1-5. There is no mention of this division split in the tourney rules. I guess my question is, is the scratch payout legal as 308b says each event must payout 1-10? Is it enough that singles pays out at least 1-10, or must both payout the minimum?

What's to stop at TD from arbitrarily deciding how much to pay out in this instance? He could "decide" to payout 1-150 on the scratch side, and 1-2 on the handicap side and still maintain his tourney 1-5 ratio and the USBC rule?

Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!
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Old 06-11-2017, 10:06 PM
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!

I think the dementia has consumed me. I thought 30 0f 150 were paid scratch and 170 of 850 handicap were paid. I think the payout minimum applies to each division / event
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!
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Old 06-11-2017, 11:44 PM
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!

No, you're right. 30 places for scratch, 170 for handicap. It's just that with automatic dual entires, why arent the entires split 50/50, then paid out equally on the 1-5 ratio? Everyone pays in the same amount! It's the arbitrary 85/15 split that has me scratching my head. If this is legal, then 85% of all bowlers 220 and over average prize fund part of their entry fees goes to the handicap prize fund.

And the TD can make it ANY split he wants. He can choose to payout ANY ratio within either division as long as the meets his published 1-5 total for the "event".

Thanks for the conversation Rev. I really need to wrap my head around this.

Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!
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Old 06-11-2017, 11:54 PM
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!

explain it to me when you do
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!
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Old 06-12-2017, 05:00 PM
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!

Ok. (NUMBERS ROUNDED)

Given the 1000 entry example, the actual payout is 30 places for scratch, and 170 for handicap. The published ratio is 1 in 5, which they maintain is satisfied by paying out 200 total prizes out of 1000. The published prize rules do not mention a split or different payouts for scratch/handicap, only the 1 in 5 ratio.

The EFFECTIVE ratio for scratch is 1 in 17 (30 out of 500), and the EFFECTIVE ratio in handicap is 1 in 3 (170 out of 500).

The questions are:

1. Given 308b, is this a legal payout as it is not 1 in 10 for scratch?

2. If it is legal, what's to stop a TD from arbitrarily deciding to alter the payouts to some ridiculous level? Such as a 5/995 split where they payout 1 place for scratch (1 in 5), and 199 places for handicap (1 in 5).

Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!
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Old 06-12-2017, 06:26 PM
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!

I'm confused. You say it's dual entry, but then you say 850 are handicap and 150 are scratch? If payment covers both, wouldn't 1000 be handicap AND 1000 be scratch?

Either way, did the TD state how the prize fund would be distributed before the event? Is it in the flier? If so, he's done nothing wrong regardless about what I think about his payout structure (which I'm still deciding, since I don't understand).

I'm not used to the "one fee covers both" model, I've usually seen optional scratch in most things.

Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!
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Old 06-12-2017, 07:21 PM
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!

Yes, you play one entry fee, and you are entered into both handicap and scratch events. You can only cash in one division (highest place), regardless.

There are a total of 1000 entries, but the TD decided to split it up 85%/15% as far as prize fund distribution.

No there is no mention of the prize split at all in any publication on the tourney.

Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!
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Old 06-13-2017, 02:10 PM
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepetrosky View Post
Yes, you play one entry fee, and you are entered into both handicap and scratch events. You can only cash in one division (highest place), regardless.
Dear mikepetrosky:

You say that a player can only cash in one division (highest place). More specifically, do you mean highest PLACE or highest AMOUNT of prize money?

Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!
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Old 06-13-2017, 05:57 PM
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Re: Rules question - some interpretation please!

The rules do state the highest PRIZE, not the highest PLACE.
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