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You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-20-2017, 12:36 PM
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You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Let me lay out the scenario for you:

A guy averages 200+ for the last 9 years, starting in 2007. Magically, last season, he falls to....wait for it!......

156.

I shit you not.

Why is this relevant? Because this same person entered a handicapped tournament in which the top prize typically pays more than $2000 for a single division, and he appears to be on track to win at least two and possibly three.

Anyone have a problem with that??

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-20-2017, 12:41 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Put his arm in the ball return.

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:49 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Cadet View Post
Let me lay out the scenario for you:

A guy averages 200+ for the last 9 years, starting in 2007. Magically, last season, he falls to....wait for it!......

156.

I shit you not.

Why is this relevant? Because this same person entered a handicapped tournament in which the top prize typically pays more than $2000 for a single division, and he appears to be on track to win at least two and possibly three.

Anyone have a problem with that??
It's sad and shameful someone has to cheat to win like this. The pride he must have for himself to be a winner this way!!
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-20-2017, 02:26 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Notify the tournament director with a copy of his USBC averages sheet. That is just plain wrong.

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-20-2017, 03:16 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

This is the biggest problem with competitive bowling. He needs to be taken out back and get the @#$% kicked out of him.

However, if the tournament director doesn't care to use rule 319(c), I wouldn't bowl their events.
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-20-2017, 03:39 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Update: I've talked to the tournament director, who I consider a friend. She has encouraged me to write a protest, which I will do. But that's one reason why I'm not happy. This is exactly why bowling has the shoddy rep it does sometimes. In golf you call penalties on yourself.

In bowling? People try to scam the national championship and local meets like this all the friggin' time....

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:11 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Got another suspicious event here too:

State Open Championships, handicap Singles winner wins with a handicap 3 game series of 896. With 93 pins/game handicap, he claimed an average of 127, yet averaged 205 for singles.

Lest you think he got "lucky" for singles, he also won All-Events handicap, averaging 183 for all 9 games. On a claimed 127 average. Yeah...

Oh, and his USBC average record has 2 leagues for the past 2 years, both with 0 games and 0 average.


Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-20-2017, 07:12 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepetrosky View Post
Got another suspicious event here too:

State Open Championships, handicap Singles winner wins with a handicap 3 game series of 896. With 93 pins/game handicap, he claimed an average of 127, yet averaged 205 for singles.

Lest you think he got "lucky" for singles, he also won All-Events handicap, averaging 183 for all 9 games. On a claimed 127 average. Yeah...

Oh, and his USBC average record has 2 leagues for the past 2 years, both with 0 games and 0 average.

Sounds like another POS. I bet the scumbag loaded up on the brackets as well.

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-20-2017, 08:04 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Don't most tourneys require you to bowl scratch if you have no book average?

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-21-2017, 12:21 AM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

I suspect he has an "unreported" average. So he bowls a league, has an established average he can verify by standing sheet or association book average, but it's not reported by the secretary to USBC.

Another dark underbelly of handicap tournaments. Why bowl a league that reports your average, creating a historical record as the clear case above, when they don't have to? And make out with a few grand in winnings a year?

BYW, his "buddy" from the same area was almost as bad. Cashed in multiple events, threw WAY over his low average too. Not as mathematically outrageous but just as incredible.

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-21-2017, 12:25 AM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Milo, I don't know about his bracket winnings, although he would have absolutely cleaned up, I agree. Of course those winnings are not reported publicly.

Between this and the asinine prize fund distribution, I will not bowl next year for prize fund cash, it's just not there. I'll go bowl singles/doubles and bracket the hell out of the squads.

BTW, I am not a handicap bowler, so this guy didn't take any of my money. The above mentioned brackets will be scratch brackets.

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:56 AM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Cadet View Post
Let me lay out the scenario for you: A guy averages 200+ for the last 9 years, starting in 2007. Magically, last season, he falls to....wait for it!......156. . . .

Anyone have a problem with that??
Space Cadet:

I have a problem with that! If possible, would you post the bowler's name, tournament name, tournament director, date(s) of tournament, etc.? I would like to do some additional research into suspected sandbaggers. If there is enough documentation available, and if enough USBC members send protests to their local associations and/or the USBC, maybe some cheaters can be banned from competition.

In the long run, this may be more a more effective way to get rid of sandbaggers than to threaten or assault them. I am in favor of any non-violent means of dealing with issues like this.


RevZilla:

Would it be possible to create a "Sandbagger Forum" to help us weed out some of the people who are continuing to give our sport a poor reputation? Are you aware of any national database of banned bowlers?

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-21-2017, 04:43 AM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

I have seen the USBC ban baggers once in a blue moon. I think they are taking more frequent action at Nationals. I have never seen the USBC publish a bagger database or list. Making disciplinary actions and statuses public may open them up to lawsuits.

I could create that forum here, but have those same worries. Open to suggestions
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-21-2017, 09:06 AM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventen7ten View Post
Space Cadet:

I have a problem with that! If possible, would you post the bowler's name, tournament name, tournament director, date(s) of tournament, etc.? I would like to do some additional research into suspected sandbaggers. If there is enough documentation available, and if enough USBC members send protests to their local associations and/or the USBC, maybe some cheaters can be banned from competition.

In the long run, this may be more a more effective way to get rid of sandbaggers than to threaten or assault them. I am in favor of any non-violent means of dealing with issues like this.


RevZilla:

Would it be possible to create a "Sandbagger Forum" to help us weed out some of the people who are continuing to give our sport a poor reputation? Are you aware of any national database of banned bowlers?
The sand-bagger phenomenon did not just happen over night. It has been going on since the beginning of the installation of the handicap system. And no, ABC / USBC did very little to curb this method of cheating. In terms of, who is sandbagging, what is sandbagging, we've had heightened discussions on that topic right here on BBE.

Understanding the mindset of an individual who would purposely shave pins to gain an advantage is critical. To keep it simple, they have smug, confident personalities, backed by minimal skill. It's like playing Hide and Seek while standing in full view, thinking, no one can see them because they are so little. They are hilarious!

Yet, forever, they have been able to get away with taking large prize funds because nobody wants to do anything about them. They are scum!

Think about this, bowling for money in any shape or form is gambling. The committee for the protection of unfair gambling practice is the ABC / USBC. They have not done their job in protecting unsuspecting bowling membership. PERIOD.

Further more, we can all see who these despicable individuals are. What happens when the appropriate measures are not taken? Most conscientious individuals would rather not associate with those types of individuals, so many quit bowling. (Just another reason for people to quit organized bowling).

My original statement, "put their arm in the ball return" was in jest. But really, it's not such a bad idea.

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:19 AM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.


Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-21-2017, 03:08 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

I think a "Sandbagger Forum" that had names of suspected cheaters, would probably only last until the site owner started getting the emails filled with the words Libel and Lawsuit.

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-22-2017, 11:50 AM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlingmojo View Post
I think a "Sandbagger Forum" that had names of suspected cheaters, would probably only last until the site owner started getting the emails filled with the words Libel and Lawsuit.
True. However, it could be set up as a kind of informational support group. Provide tips on what information to gather and how / who to report it to. Perhaps provide name and contact information for USBC and tournament directors. It could be a place to post links to articles about sandbagging and sandbaggers who were caught. And of course, a common place where the issue could be discussed.
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-22-2017, 06:15 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

ABC was, USBC is, the support group. In the end, it is based on their decision making process as to how the situation will be handled.

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-22-2017, 10:32 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9andawiggle View Post
True. However, it could be set up as a kind of informational support group. Provide tips on what information to gather and how / who to report it to. Perhaps provide name and contact information for USBC and tournament directors. It could be a place to post links to articles about sandbagging and sandbaggers who were caught. And of course, a common place where the issue could be discussed.
These are some good ideas.

"Sandbagger Forum" was only meant as a generic name for a place to post suspicious or exceptionally high and/or unbelievable scores in USBC sanctioned tournaments. I am sorry I didn't suggest a better name from the beginning. It wouldn't be too hard to come up with a politically-correct term that would be acceptable to the site's owners and be unlikely to provoke a lawsuit.

And remember, statements are not libelous if they are true. (I know there are members that have editorial experience that might provide some input on this: Mighty Fish, are you able to comment on this?).

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-22-2017, 10:55 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

....so, what you would like to establish is something similar to a sex offender list?

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-24-2017, 12:15 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomaHawk View Post
....so, what you would like to establish is something similar to a sex offender list?
USBC already has a list of this type, which is how people quickly realized what was going on at Nationals this year.

You earn the reputation you deserve. If you cheat once, it's reasonable to believe that you may do so again in the future.

Not saying it's fair, and in some cases, people really do turn over a new leaf. But in my experience, that's rare.
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-24-2017, 02:30 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Cadet View Post
USBC already has a list of this type, which is how people quickly realized what was going on at Nationals this year.

You earn the reputation you deserve. If you cheat once, it's reasonable to believe that you may do so again in the future.

Not saying it's fair, and in some cases, people really do turn over a new leaf. But in my experience, that's rare.
A lot of people around here have made sandbagging their career and did so for well over a 35 year stretch. We all knew who they were / are, ABC even sent reps to watch some of these guys personally. But, ABC / USBC would never do anything about them.

It's so ironic though, a very good bowler I bowled with went to a tournament. The oil condition on that particular day was atrocious. So, he tried to play the gutter and ended up throwing 21 gutter balls. His score 007. ABC immediately banned him. But, in reality, his score had absolutely no impact on his average or anything for that matter.

I guess sandbagging just has to be that obvious.

Crazy!

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-25-2017, 02:44 AM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Cadet View Post
USBC already has a list of this type, which is how people quickly realized . . .
Dear Space:
Could you please provide a link to this list?

Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:38 PM
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Re: You want an example? HERE's an example of sandbagging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventen7ten View Post
Dear Space:
Could you please provide a link to this list?
Nope. But Chad Murphy has said the USBC keeps a close watch on people after the organization identifies those who cheat. That's why they lowered the boom on two players at the Open who were proven to be repeat offenders.

As for my situation, the USBC has responded very quickly, contacting the tournament manager and me, and some type of action is about to take place.

I am told that disqualifications are on the table, as well as re-rating, and in the future, if there is evidence that people do this kind of thing, USBC will begin the process to file criminal charges, per the changes in the rules re: unfair tactics.

For those of you who do not know about the latest rule changes, you should be aware that in states where brackets (and other types of betting) are permitted, the USBC has now decided to turn cases over to law enforcement if the facts support the unfair tactics (read: sandbagging) claim.

I hope they really do what they say they will do.
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