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Pin up v. Pin down
  #1  
Old 07-10-2017, 06:27 PM
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Pin up v. Pin down

I read an article on storms website by one of their ball techs and he said pkn up causes the ball to roll early because of removing weight from the side of the core and drilling pin down adds length because of removing weight from the top of the core. Even after posting proof in the article about why this happens people still argue that its the other way. What do you guys think?

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #2  
Old 07-10-2017, 06:34 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Idk but can't wait for some responses

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Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #3  
Old 07-10-2017, 07:21 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shpfro View Post
I read an article on storms website by one of their ball techs and he said pin up causes the ball to roll early because of removing weight from the side of the core and drilling pin down adds length because of removing weight from the top of the core. Even after posting proof in the article about why this happens people still argue that its the other way. What do you guys think?
Post a link to the article, please.

nevermind found it.

Pin Up vs. Pin Down

May 10, 2017
|In Tech
|By Alex Hoskins

http://news.stormbowling.com/2017/05...p-vs-pin-down/
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #4  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:53 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

I would say transitions faster or slower. cover trumps all then core then lay out. But you have to factor in everything when considering ball and layout for desired reaction.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #5  
Old 07-11-2017, 09:05 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

We have a customer who buys a ton, always wants the strongest layout possible. Most all of his layouts are a variation of a pin up (of course, there are a lot of other factors). I'm pretty sure a "settee pro shop guy" has looked at the ball and told him the layout is wrong, the pin should have been down. Reason I say that, because every other day he comes in and asks, "did you give me the strongest layout possible for that ball?" Then he says, "are you sure?" It gets even more confusing for customers when other pro shops are confused about modern ball layouts.

It seems, every day I have to go through the explanation of why a pin up for a particular ball is stronger. The discussion will never end.
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #6  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:01 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

All I know is I cannot have a pin down layout. Every time it ends up flaring over the thumb, so I avoid pin down layouts completely.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #7  
Old 07-11-2017, 01:45 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomaHawk View Post
We have a customer who buys a ton, always wants the strongest layout possible. Most all of his layouts are a variation of a pin up (of course, there are a lot of other factors). I'm pretty sure a "settee pro shop guy" has looked at the ball and told him the layout is wrong, the pin should have been down. Reason I say that, because every other day he comes in and asks, "did you give me the strongest layout possible for that ball?" Then he says, "are you sure?" It gets even more confusing for customers when other pro shops are confused about modern ball layouts.

It seems, every day I have to go through the explanation of why a pin up for a particular ball is stronger. The discussion will never end.
/\ THIS /\

I've had pin up balls that rolled early, strong, and smooth.
I've had pin down balls that went long and flipped like a B. O. O. H.

Depends on the ball and the condition you're on.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #8  
Old 07-12-2017, 12:30 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
/\ THIS /\

I've had pin up balls that rolled early, strong, and smooth.
I've had pin down balls that went long and flipped like a B. O. O. H.

Depends on the ball and the condition you're on.
+1
It really depends on the condition or pattern your bowling on. for the most part for me hooking patterns I use pin down and long flat patterns I use pin up. It's about how the ball transitions.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #9  
Old 07-12-2017, 12:49 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Too many factors which is why it mentions in the article this is only a small piece of the puzzle. It also says these things if all other are equal.

Most bowlers and many Proshop workers do not understand flare and how it affects ball shape. More flare isn't always more. All things equal the more it flares the slower it responds to friction. The less the ball flares the quicker the ball responds to friction. More flare helps the ball slow down sooner. Less flare means the ball will take longer to slow down.

Same things with surface. Less surface the ball takes longer to slow down in oil and responds quicker to friction. More surface the ball slows down sooner and responds slower to friction.

All is relative to the ball. Must be factored with the bowler style and condition as well.
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #10  
Old 07-13-2017, 12:13 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by six pack View Post
+1
It really depends on the condition or pattern your bowling on. for the most part for me hooking patterns I use pin down and long flat patterns I use pin up. It's about how the ball transitions.

So im a little confused by your answer, are you agreeing with the article or not.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #11  
Old 07-13-2017, 01:13 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Yes for the most part I agree with the article.
when the lanes are hooking the pin down layouts transition slower during the 2nd transition and are more consistent. a pin up layout is more erratic. on longer patterns with less dry and less time for the ball to hook pin up layouts transition faster. you have a smaller area for friction and longer oil for hold so you want a faster transition.

now what do you consider stronger? early hook and roll or sharper more pronounced move? and don't forget cover strength. try bowling on a 45ft med light volume pattern. or a 35 ft heavy. and consider who is bowling on your pair with you.

Last edited by six pack; 07-13-2017 at 01:30 AM.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #12  
Old 07-23-2017, 11:09 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Scorcho View Post
All I know is I cannot have a pin down layout. Every time it ends up flaring over the thumb, so I avoid pin down layouts completely.
I'm the opposite, pin up stuff just doesn't roll well for me. probably 1 of my favorite layouts is the pin in the middle finger. its approx 5" from PAP and just gives me such a predictable motion.
as mentioned above though, surface is the most influential part of ball motion, followed by pin-pap distance, then core strength, layouts-ball tweaks are down the list. its so important to figure out what works best for you!
I am fortunate that a friend who is a staffer helps me out tremendously, he has alot of knowledge about what works best for others. been some trial and error though. Stronger balls I can drill a bit weaker. Weaker balls are hit/miss if I try to do a weaker layout.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #13  
Old 07-24-2017, 01:47 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

i consider stronger skid/flip, sharp angle. unlike a lot of typical league bowlers i can read a lane front to back. balls that i have thrown that move more left to right never have the stored energy to provide hitting power to the pins. people dont realize that the balls has spent its energy hooking and is powerless in its roll phase. im very rev dominate, between 375-400 and only about 15.5 mph, so a lot of my balls are dry/medium balls and i get them drilled with extra length.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #14  
Old 07-24-2017, 10:09 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shpfro View Post
i consider stronger skid/flip, sharp angle. unlike a lot of typical league bowlers i can read a lane front to back. balls that i have thrown that move more left to right never have the stored energy to provide hitting power to the pins. people dont realize that the balls has spent its energy hooking and is powerless in its roll phase. im very rev dominate, between 375-400 and only about 15.5 mph, so a lot of my balls are dry/medium balls and i get them drilled with extra length.


1) Unlike a lot of people, you do not know how to use capitalized letters in the beginning of a sentence.

2) Bowling balls cannot store energy, they are not batteries. Depending on multiple factors, they use kinetic energy, bowling balls themselves do not have potential energy.

3) 15.5 - 375 - 400 RPM is not very rev dominant

4) What you do not realize is that depending on the bowler, to be able to retain energy, the bowler has left to right or right to left to find more push in the front part of the lane, therefor have the ball retain axis rotation longer and not to bleed off kinetic energy as fast.
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #15  
Old 07-26-2017, 01:49 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

thanks for clarifying that bowling balls are not batteries. Im not even gonna get into an argument over "storing" energy

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #16  
Old 07-26-2017, 09:47 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shpfro View Post
thanks for clarifying that bowling balls are not batteries. Im not even gonna get into an argument over "storing" energy
There is no argument.

Energy storage is the capture of energy produced at one time for use at a later time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_storage

That is NOT a bowling ball.
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #17  
Old 07-26-2017, 12:24 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

....would it be fair to say, a bowling ball produces energy?

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #18  
Old 07-26-2017, 12:45 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomaHawk View Post
....would it be fair to say, a bowling ball produces energy?
I wouldn't think so. The bowling ball gets its energy from the bowler and expends it as it rolls down the lanes into the pins. If the ball got faster when it changed direction, or hooked, then we might be able to say it created energy.

I think the term MeNo is trying to get people to understand is energy retention. Some balls with certain layouts retain its initial energy given by the bowler better than other balls.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #19  
Old 07-26-2017, 01:17 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eramyl View Post
I wouldn't think so. The bowling ball gets its energy from the bowler and expends it as it rolls down the lanes into the pins.
Absolutely!

....so, in the truest sense of how energy can be achieved, does a bowling ball, either rolled, thrown, or dropped become an object that provides energy in some shape or form?

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #20  
Old 07-26-2017, 02:20 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Only to the pins when it hits them.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #21  
Old 07-26-2017, 02:21 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eramyl View Post
I wouldn't think so. The bowling ball gets its energy from the bowler and expends it as it rolls down the lanes into the pins. If the ball got faster when it changed direction, or hooked, then we might be able to say it created energy.

I think the term MeNo is trying to get people to understand is energy retention. Some balls with certain layouts retain its initial energy given by the bowler better than other balls.
Exactly.

A bowling ball is using kinetic energy, which is given to it from the bowler. You can't sit a bowling ball on the ground, walk away, and use energy to go down the lane.

As I showed the definition that is as clear as day.

There are many forms of energy, but they can all be put into two categories: kinetic and potential. Kinetic energy is motion––of waves, electrons, atoms, molecules, substances, and objects. Potential energy is stored energy and the energy of position––gravitational energy.

It cant be any simpler than that. People that want to argue it are just doing it for the sake of arguing.
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #22  
Old 07-26-2017, 03:27 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Good!

......so, let's quit with the argument that a bowling ball is not a battery. please

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #23  
Old 07-27-2017, 01:56 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeNoRevs View Post
IMO, this pic and acronym (for a vulgar phrase) appears to violate the first two rules of the "BBE Terms of Service." It was not respectful and seemed to belittle the poster.
1. BBE and its moderators will respect you and your opinions. In return, you must be respectful to everyone else.
2. No flaming, name-calling, bullying, personal attacks, or belittling of anyone will be tolerated...including ball companies and people who are not members of this site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeNoRevs View Post
1) Unlike a lot of people, you do not know how to use capitalized letters in the beginning of a sentence.
Don't we all wish that proper grammar rules were observed on the internet? However, I was able to understand Shpfro's comment very easily (and evidently others did as well). The major pet peeve I have is the unnecessary use of capitalization and/or large and boldface type (see a later comment in this same thread).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeNoRevs View Post
2) Bowling balls cannot store energy, they are not batteries. Depending on multiple factors, they use kinetic energy, bowling balls themselves do not have potential energy.
Actually, a bowling ball does have potential energy. (For the complete article see http://phun.physics.virginia.edu/topics/energy.html).
Potential energy is stored energy. If an object is very heavy and is located at a certain height, it will have more stored energy than a lighter object at the same height. We know that this is true because which would you rather catch dropped from a building, a bowling ball or a tennis ball? Since the bowling ball is heavier than a tennis ball, it has more stored energy. This energy, while falling, is converted to the energy of motion, or kinetic energy.
Have you ever dropped a bowling ball on your foot? You'll quickly find out out how much potential energy a ball has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeNoRevs View Post
3) 15.5 - 375 - 400 RPM is not very rev dominant
According to Wikipedia (which evidently is the most reliable source for almost everything including discussions of physics, etc.)
A cranker or power player is a bowler who strives to generate revolutions using a cupped wrist or excessive wrist action. They have rev rates over 370 rpm.
I think this might qualify as "rev-dominant." (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_form)


Quote:
Originally Posted by MeNoRevs View Post
4) What you do not realize is that depending on the bowler, to be able to retain energy, the bowler has left to right or right to left to find more push in the front part of the lane, therefor have the ball retain axis rotation longer and not to bleed off kinetic energy as fast.
A bowling ball cannot bleed off kinetic energy. It is the friction between the bowling lane and the ball that creates and/or contributes to the ball's lateral motion (depending also on the forces that the bowler imparts to the ball at the point of release). There may be an "apparent loss of energy" as it enters the pin deck, which is attributable to the forward momentum of the ball overcoming the other forces, i.e. axis rotation, revs (rpm), etc.

I still prefer to use the term "loss of energy" when trying to explain the ball's failure to strike on an apparently good hit. Rarely if ever do the people I bowl with explain ball motion in term of physics. But, if you really want to check out a more complete treatise on the physics of bowling, see the following web page (http://www.real-world-physics-proble...f-bowling.html).
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #24  
Old 07-27-2017, 03:10 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

In the context of a bowler observing his ball on the lane in order to adjust to what the ball is doing, saying a ball is or is not storing its energy long enough is not functionally different than saying it is or is not expending its energy too quickly.

This argument is useless because the same adjustment will be needed regardless of what one calls what was observed.
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #25  
Old 07-27-2017, 09:51 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventen7ten View Post
IMO, this pic and acronym (for a vulgar phrase) appears to violate the first two rules of the "BBE Terms of Service." It was not respectful and seemed to belittle the poster.
1. BBE and its moderators will respect you and your opinions. In return, you must be respectful to everyone else.
2. No flaming, name-calling, bullying, personal attacks, or belittling of anyone will be tolerated...including ball companies and people who are not members of this site.
Don't we all wish that proper grammar rules were observed on the internet? However, I was able to understand Shpfro's comment very easily (and evidently others did as well). The major pet peeve I have is the unnecessary use of capitalization and/or large and boldface type (see a later comment in this same thread).

Actually, a bowling ball does have potential energy. (For the complete article see http://phun.physics.virginia.edu/topics/energy.html).
Potential energy is stored energy. If an object is very heavy and is located at a certain height, it will have more stored energy than a lighter object at the same height. We know that this is true because which would you rather catch dropped from a building, a bowling ball or a tennis ball? Since the bowling ball is heavier than a tennis ball, it has more stored energy. This energy, while falling, is converted to the energy of motion, or kinetic energy.
Have you ever dropped a bowling ball on your foot? You'll quickly find out out how much potential energy a ball has.

According to Wikipedia (which evidently is the most reliable source for almost everything including discussions of physics, etc.)
A cranker or power player is a bowler who strives to generate revolutions using a cupped wrist or excessive wrist action. They have rev rates over 370 rpm.
I think this might qualify as "rev-dominant." (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_form)


A bowling ball cannot bleed off kinetic energy. It is the friction between the bowling lane and the ball that creates and/or contributes to the ball's lateral motion (depending also on the forces that the bowler imparts to the ball at the point of release). There may be an "apparent loss of energy" as it enters the pin deck, which is attributable to the forward momentum of the ball overcoming the other forces, i.e. axis rotation, revs (rpm), etc.

I still prefer to use the term "loss of energy" when trying to explain the ball's failure to strike on an apparently good hit. Rarely if ever do the people I bowl with explain ball motion in term of physics. But, if you really want to check out a more complete treatise on the physics of bowling, see the following web page (http://www.real-world-physics-proble...f-bowling.html).
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1) PM Revzilla to let him know I violated TOS.

2) As an object falls from rest, its gravitational potential energy is converted to kinetic energy.

3) My mother has 400 RPM's but throws it 10 mph, is she a cranker? Your comment here lets me know never to take you serious on anything bowling related again.

4) I agree with your assessment and will start to use that term when describing energy loss.
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #26  
Old 07-27-2017, 01:16 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down






Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #27  
Old 07-27-2017, 01:39 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Curious about statement in post #25: 3) My mother has 400 RPM's but throws it 10 mph, is she a cranker?

Really?

Does she prefer pin up or pin down?

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #28  
Old 07-27-2017, 08:44 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down



This thread is making my day!!

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #29  
Old 07-28-2017, 02:34 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeNoRevs View Post
1) PM Revzilla to let him know I violated TOS.

2) As an object falls from rest, its gravitational potential energy is converted to kinetic energy.

3) My mother has 400 RPM's but throws it 10 mph, is she a cranker? Your comment here lets me know never to take you serious on anything bowling related again.

4) I agree with your assessment and will start to use that term when describing energy loss.
Dear MeNoRevs:

To begin with, I’m not looking to have an online fight or “flame war” with you (or anyone else for that matter). Also, if you were to meet me in person and you got to know me a little better, you would soon realize that I have a rather dry sense of humor, and I sometimes will exaggerate or use hyperbole to try and make a point. However, I don’t think that this comes through in print very well. I will try and use the proper emoji in the future.


1) Ordinarily, I would prefer to express my opinion about an issue I have with someone privately, but since your message signature implies that you prefer not to receive PMs, I respected your wishes and responded to you within the thread. I chose not to PM Revzilla about this because I did not want to “go behind your back.”

2) This sounds about right. I cannot disagree with this.

3) Now, I never would have brought your mother into this, but since you did. . . .*

OK. I think I see your point. 400rpm and 10mph ball speed may not qualify her as a “cranker.” However, she may still be a “rev-dominant” player. Rev-dominant was the term that I understood you to have a problem with Shpfro's post. If I'm wrong about this let me know.

I was searching around the web and found a chart (http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/ind...dvsRevRate.JPG) that purports to show the “ideal” ball speed vs. RPMs for a perfectly matched bowler.
__________________________________________________ ___
____


__________________________________________________ ______

As I interpret this, if a bowler has a higher amount of revs than is appropriate for his/her ball speed, then that person is “rev-dominant.” If I am wrong about this, can someone please help me to understand this better. (If a source can be quoted or linked to your comments and/or opinions; even better.)

4) I’m glad we can agree about this terminology. And for the record, that link regarding bowling physics was way over my level of understanding. I just thought it might be impressive. I respect you and the forums’ viewers enough to back up my opinions with some facts and sources.

(FYI: So there is no misunderstanding, the paragraphs above are all meant to be interpreted seriously.)

* I am looking for a new doubles partner for the USBC Open Championships, and since your mom’s ball speed is only slightly slower than mine, I think we could probably work together to burn a hole in the pattern and really open up the lanes. If she’s available next May, and can find a way to get to Syracuse, let me know. e
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #30  
Old 07-28-2017, 11:29 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Something to go along with your talk of speed and rev's which is the release ratio which is explained in this video starting at the 37 min. mark.

You should watch both the "Axis Tilt and Rotation" and "rpm" sections along with the release ratio, because they are connected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxoDM9B2Jyk



Understanding Ball Motion to elevate your game
contents

  1. Finding your PAP
  2. Initial PAP, Midlane PAP, Final PAP
  3. Roll Tape ( Roll Tracer)
  4. Ball Motion and Lane Play
  5. Entry Angle
  6. Burn Up or Burn Out
  7. Axis Tilt and Rotation
  8. Release ratio
  9. RPM
  10. Hardness of lane surfaces
  Thanks from:

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #31  
Old 07-28-2017, 04:34 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

The title of the thread is Pin up v. Pin down. Please explain what that has to do with Mom's rev rate?

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #32  
Old 07-29-2017, 08:52 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

So if MOM raised her speed up to 15 mph what layouts should she use for a long flat pattern and a short flat pattern? Her tilt is 8* and ar is 60*.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #33  
Old 08-03-2017, 09:43 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Lou/Revzilla,

Is anything productive being produced within this thread?
I mean, besides ego displays.

As soon as someone says, "pin up or pin down", I would suggest he learn Dual Angle terminology and then rephrase his question. Then I would hope his new question would involve pin distances combined with VAL angles combined with ball speed/rev rate ratios.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #34  
Old 08-04-2017, 12:55 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Pin up/down is over simplified, but a lot of bowlers are happy to think that's all they need to know to be an expert. Ball companies are glad things are so simple now. So are some shop operators. Ignorance is bliss...
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #35  
Old 08-04-2017, 11:53 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Terms like stack leverage, label layouts, and axis leverage are easy for people to visualize. So, if someone comes into the shop and says: "I want the pin below the finger with the cg or mass bias kicked out", we can go in the back room and fine tune the layout with dual angles or vls. Simple.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #36  
Old 08-04-2017, 02:46 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Every time I read a post similar to this, the same question comes to mind; does it really make a difference to your local house hack?

I read on this board(and others) about the typical house bowlers skill being non-existent, how little they know, the only reason they average 220+ is because of easy conditions, etc. etc.

So why get upset when someone doesn't care about angles and just want to have the pin above the ring finger or pin below the ring finger?

Either it matters, or it doesn't.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #37  
Old 08-05-2017, 01:24 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

I know MeNo always comes off poorly but having met the guy, let him drill stuff....the guy is one of the most genuine people in the industry. If he comes off like an a**hole it's probably because you spreading information that is ignorantly wrong.

As someone who uses pin up and down a lot on the same ball....what storm put out is 100% correct. Pin down is a control drill for me.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #38  
Old 08-06-2017, 01:16 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Want to know what is worse than a person suggesting they want the pin down or up? Someone coming into the shop and stating vehemently, drill the ball with this dual angle pattern. I'll watch them throw the ball, they have meno's Mom's rev rate and ball speed! (No offense to meno's Mom). The person, asking for a specific dual angle drill pattern, is bright and articulate, but is totally unrealistic about their capability.

What now?

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #39  
Old 08-06-2017, 01:59 AM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Bright and articulate may be able to handle some truth. Add in a video of them to calculate speed and revs. Discuss what really WILL work.

If they can not handle truth and constructive assistance, let them move on and at least keep your own integrity
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #40  
Old 08-06-2017, 04:18 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

This post clearly went in the wrong direction. I should have asked what works best for each bowler. I didnt realize this would turn into a pissing contest.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #41  
Old 08-06-2017, 05:47 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shpfro View Post
This post clearly went in the wrong direction. I should have asked what works best for each bowler. I didnt realize this would turn into a pissing contest.
It wouldn't have really mattered if you had asked that, the result would have been basically the same.

Using the of the terms Pinup, Pindown in most contexts, will start a debate pretty much no matter how you used them.

Re: Pin up v. Pin down
  #42  
Old 08-07-2017, 01:31 PM
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Re: Pin up v. Pin down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shpfro View Post
This post clearly went in the wrong direction. I should have asked what works best for each bowler. I didnt realize this would turn into a pissing contest.
Just like sitting around after bowling, having a couple of pops
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