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New thumb pitch drilling?
  #1  
Old 10-16-2009, 11:21 AM
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New thumb pitch drilling?

I've been told that there is a new way of thump pitch drilling.
Is there anybody out here who could tell me more about it.
I've been told that it's a new thought, and it has got something to do with how to place the ball in the drill press.

Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #2  
Old 10-16-2009, 03:47 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

I want to learn about this too. I have a double jointed thumb and have never had a squeeze free grip because the joint opens up when the weight of the ball pulls on it during the swing.
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #3  
Old 10-16-2009, 05:53 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

Last year in Florida at Bowl Expo Bas and I were discussing an idea I had about how to drill a ball differently. Personally, I had been goofing around with this idea for a few years with my own equipment and loved the results.

Knowing Bas to be the true pro that he is I shared my ideas with him and asked him to experiment. He told me later he had trouble sleeping that night.

Since that conversation he has taken this to a whole new level and his business really hasn't been the same.

He has been after me to publish something about this which I have no desire to do. Maybe some people are already using this method. I don't know. What I do know is we both have had tremendous success with our customers drilling balls this way.

Is it the right way for you? Who knows. All I know is the results have consistently been much happier customers, higher rev rates with less effort, less tension needed to hold on to the ball, less bevel needed to clear the thumb and customers who are literally throwing money at him to switch to this method.

With that I will leave it up to you Bas to tell people what you are up to and share your success story with the good people here.

JJ







Bas, the floor is yours

Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #4  
Old 10-16-2009, 06:23 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

sounds interesting as i have some guys that thumb is a major issue id be very interested in seeing some different methods
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #5  
Old 10-17-2009, 01:26 AM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

Oh no you didnt!! You didnt just come in here and tease us like that and not spill the beans, LOL.
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #6  
Old 10-17-2009, 12:46 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

Yes we did!
Hahahahahhaahah. So I hoped that JJ was going to tell you all about it, but he's to shy (or too humble) to bring his perfect idea up. I hope I can write this without too many spelling mistakes, since we have Dutch as our native language. I can't blame it on the spell checker now.
Like John told, he gave me a little hint about his new grip, and I had a sleepless night after that trying to figure out how to get this on a ball.
When we take the basic ball drilling pitches from Bill Taylor, he teached us thump towards the pointing finger is forward and away is reverse pitch, away from the palm is out palm pitch and under is under palm pitch.
John has the thought that, that isn't how it should be....................
His thought is the thump towards the pinkey finger is forward, and away is reverse. Automaticly under and out palm pitch change 45 also.
How many of you just tried?
This means that the thump is about 45 turned like Bill teached us!

What I do is after that I layout the centre of grip line and the place where to put the thump and finger holes, I draw two lines extra.
At the place where the centre of thumphole line and the thump span line meet, I put my quarter scale perpendicular to the thump hole, and mark at both sides 45. Connect these lines with the centre of span/hole line.
Now when you put the ball in your (Innovative) drill press let the fingerholes be at the left side in 45. (your last drawn lines are facing forward to the drill press and straight left) This is for Right hand bowlers, put the fingers at the right (45) side for left handers.
Now you drill the thump, with the pitches like you were used to. Drill the fingers like you are used to.
I use this methode now for a bit more than a year and I changed about 500 bowlers' grip. Only 1 bowler couldn't get comfortable with this grip!
How many of you are going straight to the shop to test this????????????
I would like to know your comments.
But remember, this was Johns idea. He ows all the credits!
I hope you all understand what I wrote, otherwise just send me an email and I mail you some pictures.
Bas

Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #7  
Old 10-17-2009, 01:39 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

Does this mean that the forward/reverse pitch is measured and drilled diagonally, at a 45 degree angle to your center line? Please supply us with pictures if possible, I'm very interested.
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #8  
Old 10-17-2009, 01:43 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

Yea step by step pictures would be fantastic
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #9  
Old 10-17-2009, 02:15 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

Pinch...message sent.
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #10  
Old 10-17-2009, 02:44 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

I will try to get the pictures tomorrow.
Yes, anlin, we drill the thump in a 45 angle!

Please send me an email, bas at bowlingmenken.nl and I will send you the pictures.
Or PM me.
Bas

Last edited by Pinchezr; 09-15-2010 at 11:44 AM.

Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #11  
Old 10-17-2009, 03:59 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

So you are drawing a line perpendicular to the angle of the thumb oval, which matches the angle of the thumb joint hinge? I will try to draw a pic to see if I'm getting this right.

I don't think any ball fitting devices work this way. How can you figure out what pitches to use? I am thinking lateral is unnecessary because you are already on the angle of the thumb joint hinge.
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #12  
Old 10-17-2009, 04:12 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

I would like to know how you mannaged to post the drawing in. Than I could do the same.
The gray lines are ok, but your red lines are wrong. You should bring the red lines up to the fingers, there were thegray lines are. Draw the same 45 red line at the left side also. Now when you put the ball in the drill press, put the red lines horizontal and vertical, with the fingers pointing to the left (rh bowler).
You can just use the pitches as you were used to, but the grip feels totally different.

Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #17  
Old 10-17-2009, 04:43 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

Yeh, you got it! If you want to add left or right pitches, feel free to do so.
The more left pitch you put on it, the more your ball will rest in the palm of your hand.

Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #19  
Old 10-17-2009, 05:00 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

Can this be done with Thumb switch grips?
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #21  
Old 10-17-2009, 05:07 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

Excellent, I'll be a guinea pig and head down to the pro shop on Tues and see what I can get drilled up.
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #23  
Old 10-17-2009, 05:18 PM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

I will do just that. I'll make a point to be at the pro shop as early as possible so I can get back and throw some practice games before leagues start. I figured if it could be done with a switch grip then it would be an easy test and all I would be out is the expense of the new grip instead of having to plug and redrill a ball and if for some odd reason it doesnt work out I can switch back to the grip I had in previous.
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #25  
Old 10-18-2009, 12:34 AM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

Well crap, what the heck over, LOL. I was hoping that the pitch and such were all done in the switch grip inner and that the outer was just drilled straight in.
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #26  
Old 10-18-2009, 02:50 AM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

Now you see what time difference does. While I was a sleep you just couldn't stop thinking about it!
Yes you can use any kind of slugs, pre modeld thump grips. I use Griploc, slugs or Vise thump inserts.
Most of the time you can change to the new grip without any filling. I leave the thump grips, or slugs as the are in the ball. Put the ball in the drill press in a 45 angle and redrill the hole. (you drill out the old slug, but you will see that when you get down the hole your pitch is changing from the old hole) Now just install any kind of thumpinsert you like.
Unfortunately when you have a changeble thump insert you have to make a new one because the top of the insert must be adapted to the new pitch setting.
I go over to the shop in one hour and try to make as many pictures as I can.

Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #27  
Old 10-18-2009, 03:46 AM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

So how does this effect someone who doesnt use pitches? my thumb is straight down with no pitch at all....
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?
  #28  
Old 10-18-2009, 05:14 AM
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Re: New thump pitch drilling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingofKings696 View Post
So how does this effect someone who doesnt use pitches? my thumb is straight down with no pitch at all....
0 pitch is 0 pitch regardless of frame of reference
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #29  
Old 10-18-2009, 05:52 AM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

Maybe I dont understand how this drill is laid out.... Will this set the ball in my hand better as its said to for others as well?
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #31  
Old 10-18-2009, 06:32 AM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

Ya and thats why I wondered.. I may try a little forward though Ive noticed every now and then I grab at my ball or get lazy and lose it if my thumb isnt 100% perfect fit....
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #32  
Old 10-18-2009, 06:33 AM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

With the pitches being 0 that wouldn't change anything for you.
To be honest I drill balls now for 20 years and hardly ever had somebody having 0, 0 pitches.
If you change to a left pitch like of 5/16 you have the ball more on the palm of your hand. Above of all you are able to stay behind the ball longer.
I wouldn't change your forward or reverse (in your case 0), that has got to do with your total span. Bigger hands need more reverse, smaller hands need more forward.
When I drill a 4 span I use 0, smaller spans are more forward and larger spans are more reverse. I just made the pictures and a video. I only have to figure out how to post them.
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #33  
Old 10-18-2009, 08:26 AM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

I got the pictures Bas, thank you very much. I think I will still go down on Tues. and talk to the guy that drills my gear and see if he can do anything. If he cant (without having to plug and redrill) then it may have to wait until later in the week because I have leagues on Tues and Wed.

My hope was that the outer insert of my switch grip was drilled just straight in and that the pitch and all were done and handled by the inner grip slug. If thats not the case then it will take more time to get this done, probably on Thurs or something.
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #34  
Old 10-18-2009, 02:26 PM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

I am a 4 by 4 1/16 span have no pitches and I dont believe we drill my thumb offset and I am looking to get forward pitch to allow me to never grab and if I do I know it by excessive hang it may also allow me to get a cleaner more consistant release.
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #35  
Old 10-18-2009, 05:08 PM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

If you have a decent amount of material left around your current interchangeable grips and you aren't making a huge change, you MAY be able to just drill a new inner grip with the new pitch and install it in the current outer sleeve to try. Again it depends on how much material you have left around one of your current grips to know if you can redo the pitch without going through the side.

And from what I've read, another way to look at it is with the pitch adjustments, you need to just account for equal moves on both planes and that will take care of the 45 degree angle.

Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #36  
Old 10-18-2009, 09:23 PM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

I have an old Track GP2with low games in perfect condition that I am going to use to experiment with my grip. Was planning on this before this new type thumb drilling was posted here.....So, while messing with my grip, I may just try this new thumb drilling style tomorrow when I reslug the thumb on that ball which I was planning on doing anyhow before this topic was posted.

I have a ton of thumb problems with my balls. I am not a big person (way over weight by 45# but not a big type person) My thumb is a bit on the long side, a bit on the stiff side, wet sometimes, and it shrinks and swells.
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #37  
Old 10-18-2009, 09:46 PM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brickguy221 View Post
My thumb is a bit on the long side, a bit on the stiff side, wet sometimes, and it shrinks and swells.

We still talking about your thumb?? Had to ask . . . sorry for taking this post there.
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Last edited by tommymo; 10-18-2009 at 10:51 PM.

Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #38  
Old 10-18-2009, 10:18 PM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommymo View Post
We still talking about your thumb?? Had to ask . . . sorry for taking this post there.
?????? .... I'm confused. What's your point? What the Hell are you driving at? If you don't like what I write or questions for help that I ask on here sometimes, then put me on your ignore list and you won't have to read what I write if it bothers you so much.
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #39  
Old 10-18-2009, 10:24 PM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

OMG seriously?? Brick read it again, take it a lot less serious and slightly perverted!! I was just making a funny!! I read your post and immediately laughed at how the last part came out. I am not the type of person that gets off on bashing people that post.
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #40  
Old 10-18-2009, 10:47 PM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommymo View Post
OMG seriously?? Brick read it again, take it a lot less serious and slightly perverted!! I was just making a funny!! I read your post and immediately laughed at how the last part came out. I am not the type of person that gets off on bashing people that post.
Ok...sorry about coming a bit unglued there, but after being on Ball Reviews for 6 plus years and battling all of the trolls there the last 2-3 years, I get a bit edgy at times. In fact because of all of those type people that have destroyed that site as well as ran off a bunch of good people, I have quit posting over there quite some time ago, as it is a battle almost anytime someone posts anything anymore.

I only read what you wrote and didn't read the comment you posted from my post. I now see what you were saying. I took as if I constantly talk about my thumb problems.....And yeah, I now see your comment as funny. A funny face at the end of it would have gotten my attention realizing it was a joke....again sorry......Now I fell like an ass.
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #41  
Old 10-18-2009, 10:50 PM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

I understand BR is the primary reason I tend to read mostly and post very little.
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #42  
Old 10-19-2009, 05:02 AM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

Yesterday I forgot to add 3 pictures about the thought how the thump moves in a natural way.
Photo 1 is like the Bill Taylor way is forward.
Photo 2 is the new 45 thump pitch drilling, now this is forward
Photo 3 is the new 45 thump pitch driling, now this is reverse
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #43  
Old 10-20-2009, 01:45 PM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

I was sitting around trying to figure out how this type of drilling might feel on my hand, I came up with this, grip the ball with your ring finger in the middle finger hole and then insert your thumb, now the thumb pitch is towards your ring finger and pinky. It may not be the 45 degree angle that was talked about but it looks close and I could feel the ball laying in my hand better and when I rolled the ball on the carpet it sure felt nice coming off my thumb. I think the best way to test this would be to take a old ball that the thumb hole pitch and fit feels good and plug the finger holes and redrill, if there's not much difference between your middle and ring finger span and pitches you could just drill a new middle finger hole to get an idea onhow this would feel. What do you think, it may be a cheap way to test this new thumb drill.

Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #44  
Old 10-20-2009, 03:11 PM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

I talked with my driller today before making the trip down there and indeed the switch grip outer sleeve is drilled in with the pitch, so any changes would require plugging and re-drilling. So I think what I will do is take my 14lb Twisted Fury Solid down there tomorrow and have him work on it. The span was too long on it so it will be a chance I can correct that and experiment with the new thumb drilling and maybe have something I can put a little speed on for spare shots or something like that. I have leagues tonight and tomorrow night so I dont want to take a chance on not having my normal gear to use.

I'll update once I have more.
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #45  
Old 10-20-2009, 03:37 PM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

You have the right idea with this Jzapper. All I suggested to Bas was we drill CLT for the fingers..why not drill a thumb CLT? The thumb CLT is perpendicular to the oval angle of the thumb.

Drill all of your pitches to this line instead of the centerline. It makes ovalling thumbholes a snap also because you no longer have to trig out the thumb to get the desired sizing nor do you have to use an oval angle chart.

If you want a 60/1000" oval all you do is dial in the pitches, turn the ball perpendicular to the oval angle, drill the pilot thumb hole size and then crank the side pitch to the amount of oval you desire (cutting no more than 30/1000" per cut). This saves you from having to do the math or figure out the X,Y moves to achieve the desired oval angle.

You still need the centerline so you know where the point of the drill bit will fall and you still need the centerline and span measurement line so you know where the edge of the drill bit will fall.

If you look at the hand closely and see where the fingers pivot it does not pivot to the thumb (only on gorillas).

If you look at the way the thumb pivots it also does not pivot in line with the centerline. It does pivot perpendicular to the oval angle.

Good ball fitting is where science meets art. Machining (drilling) a bowling ball is just that machining. When we define forward and reverse pitch and left and right pitch it is defined from a machinist point of view but that is not the way the hand wants to bend.

Think of this another way...Put your fingers in to the finger holes. Now, pull your thumb back completely in line with the centerline...it doesn't take long to realize you are twisting the hand by changing the forward/reverse pitch. This method causes way too much stress on the hand unless the pitch is dead nuts perfect.

I realize this contradicts what has been taught for years. If you like what you have drilled now great. But, if you try this method I bet you will like what you get as long as the span is correct. You will need less bevel, the revs pick up compared to the initial ball speed, the ball lays in the hand better and IF THE SPAN AND PITCHES ARE CORRECT you will find you have more versatility with the release (you will have more range of rotation). To what degree depends on the athletecism of the player.

Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #46  
Old 10-20-2009, 09:02 PM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

I took an old ball to experiment with to a driller that used to be on the tour and has something like 12 titles. I wanted to drill out the thumb slug and put a new one in and drill it per this new drilling in this topic. We couldn't get it to come out per the drawings of Revz & Pas. When the 45 degree angle lines are drawn on the existing thumb hole and then the fingers turned to the left and lining up the 45 degree angle line as normally do the grip line to drill the thumb, the center of drill bit is going to hit the edge of the thumb hole, and not the center. This is a bit difficult for me to explain here so I don't know if anyone will know what I am trying to say here or not.

Also using my 1/4" reverse and 0 lateral thumb pitch, the driller showed me that when the thumb is drilled with the same 1/4" reverse but off the 45 degree angle line, that it is going to cut down on the reverse and increase the left lateral.

So is it not possible to drill this new angle on an existing thumb hole without plugging the thumb as well as plugging and relocating the fingers to adjust for having to move the new thumb hole about 1/2 hole to the left?

It is easy to draw it out on paper, but try drawing it out on an actual ball and existing thumb hole and it doesn't come out like it looks on paper.
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #47  
Old 10-21-2009, 01:38 AM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

Brick, I just don't understand what went wrong.
But here is how you have to deal with this step by step.

1. Draw the 45 lines as shown in the pictures 2,3 and 4.
2. Don't drill out the slug!
3. Set the pitches you want to the machine. (in your case 1/4 and 0)
4. Place the ball in the drill press, with the 45 lines vertical and horizontal, there wher your old hole is. Exactly on the spot.
5. Clamp the bal thightly and start drilling your new hole thru your old slug.
You will see that in the beginning your hole is about the same as the old hole, but after 3/8 down you notice a change.
6. Reinstall a new slug and drill your hole to the right size.

Now that you are taking about a 0 leteral pitch, I start to wonder how different your way of drilling pitches are in the States. In my shopprogam that I use for 8 years now are 2858 bowlers grips and I have a feeling that there are about 2 that have 0 leteral pitches. All the other have left or right side pitches.
I just wonder..............
Bas

Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #48  
Old 10-21-2009, 02:03 AM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinchezr View Post
Brick, I just don't understand what went wrong.
But here is how you have to deal with this step by step.

1. Draw the 45 lines as shown in the pictures 2,3 and 4.
2. Don't drill out the slug!
3. Set the pitches you want to the machine. (in your case 1/4 and 0)
4. Place the ball in the drill press, with the 45 lines vertical and horizontal, there wher your old hole is. Exactly on the spot.
5. Clamp the bal thightly and start drilling your new hole thru your old slug.
You will see that in the beginning your hole is about the same as the old hole, but after 3/8 down you notice a change.
6. Reinstall a new slug and drill your hole to the right size.

Now that you are taking about a 0 leteral pitch, I start to wonder how different your way of drilling pitches are in the States. In my shopprogam that I use for 8 years now are 2858 bowlers grips and I have a feeling that there are about 2 that have 0 leteral pitches. All the other have left or right side pitches.
I just wonder..............
Bas
Bas, in viewing the pictures closer, I see where some of the problem could be...

The grip line on teh ball is where we were drawing the 45 degree lines...However on your ball, you have a short line parallel t the grip line and the 45 degree lines are drawn off that line.....Where did this short line come from. In other words, how did you draw it based on what and how much space is there between that short line and the grip line?

I'm going to bed. Will check back tomorrow.....
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Last edited by Brickguy221; 10-21-2009 at 02:19 AM.

Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #49  
Old 10-21-2009, 04:25 AM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

Brick, If you take a close look on picture 1, you see I started with a centre of grip line, than marked the finger hole cut to cut edges and the cut edges for the thump.

Than in picture 3 there are 2 (45) lines drawn from the centre of the edge lines where we are drilling the thump. Now go over to the drill press and place the ball like you normaly would. The only thing we change is there where the fingers are. In the old way you put the fingers pointing straight up. In the new way we put the finger in the 45 left side.
Now that I'm thinking about it, there is another way to help you understanding the procedure easier.
Go to the drillpress with your old ball. Dail in your pitches, put your old ball in the drillpress like you normaly would. Now line the drill up with the the ready drilled hole.
Now rotated the ball (fingerholes) 45 counter clock wise. The thump hole stays where it was. Now drill a new hole. You see that the first 3/8 is in the old hole, but after that it start to go into another direction.
Hope this is more clear.
Bas

Re: New thumb pitch drilling?
  #50  
Old 10-21-2009, 09:23 AM
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Re: New thumb pitch drilling?

correct me if iam wrong you lay the ball out like you would usually draw the 45* lines drill the thumb on the 45 line and drill the fingers reg on your center line? also does your pic show the thumb offset there is another line just left of the center line what is that line for?
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