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Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
  #1  
Old 11-09-2009, 05:00 PM
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Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

So at the Storm demo day at my center, I was tlaking to a rep about surfaces and cleaners. First he told me each ball has poors, which i knew, then he continued to tell me that each ball has a RA number which is the size of the poors. The poors on the ball act as teeth to grab the lane to make the ball hook. Now for the interesting part, He went on to say that every time you polish a ball it clogs the poors and lowers the RA number though it doesnt make the ball bad it does kill the life of the ball, and as for sanding it he said it doesnt open the poors up very much and also lowers the RA number and also kills the prolonged life of the ball.

im glad i stopped altering surfaces when i drilled new stuff. Just thought id pass this along to my fellow BBE'ers

I even capitalized words and used most of the punctuation
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
  #2  
Old 11-09-2009, 05:26 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Nice puntuation, but...your rep oversimplified

Ra is the distance between the top and bottom of the grooves sanded into the ball. This is the major determinant of friction on the lane. Rs is the distance between the tops of the grooves.

Read page 8 of the USBC ball motion study
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn....otionstudy.pdf

Right now, the USBC limits factory Ra to that of 500 Abralon. If one were to sand a ball in a cross hatch pattern to 260 Abralon, he would make the ball hook more due to having a higher RA and more friction than the factory finish.

Sanding to a finer grit decreases the Ra and Rs, but it does not clog the pores. In fact, the pores in a coverstock are created by using plasticizer in the chemical makeup of the coverstock. The plasticizer never hardens, while the rest of the cover does, the unhardened plasticizer leaves microscopic voids in the coverstock and these are the pores.

If you were to "polish" your ball with Turtle Wax, you would indeed be putting a coating on the ball that would clog the pores. A polish like finesse-it or Lane#1's Secret Sauce, or most other bowling ball polishes, does not contain wax or silicone to coat the ball. They achieve a high gloss finish by actually having micro-abrasives that smooth the surface of the ball.
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Last edited by RevZiLLa; 11-09-2009 at 06:11 PM. Reason: I got Ra and Rs backwards

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
  #3  
Old 11-09-2009, 05:40 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Here is an Email response someone got from Storm/RotoGrip that has been posted on the web a few times.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This came from Storm/Roto Grip




Thank you for contacting us with your concern. As far as ball reaction is concerned, we have several recommendations to maintain ball performance and life, but the primary area of concern is with the surface topography of the ball. As a quick over-view, surface topography in the bowling industry has been measured with specific ‘Ra’ and ‘Rs’ standards. These values directly relate to how aggressive the coverstock is and how much friction the coverstock can generate. The Ra value measures the standard deviations above or below the surface of the ball. For example, a series of high peaks and low valleys would be measured with an extremely high Ra value. Likewise, the Great Plains with a relatively smooth landscape and rolling hills would have a low Ra value. Rs isn’t as important, but by definition is the average distance between each individual peaks.


The reason these numbers are important is because of the correlation between ball reaction and high Ra and Rs values. Essentially, the greater the Ra and Rs number, the more friction the coverstock can generate. The more friction the coverstock can generate, the greater hook potential the ball will have. What happens when a ball dies is the coverstock has lost the surface deviations originally found on the ball from the out of box finish. These deviations (high Ra and Rs numbers) are created in our finishing and rounding process by creating deep grooves, cuts, and scars on the surface of ball. Later, when the ball is finished, these rough surface deviations are smoothed and ‘polished’ but they aren’t completely removed. If you were to then examine the coverstock on a micron level, the steep peaks and valleys would still be on the surface of the ball, but they would be rounded. This creates the type of ball motion where the ball will still skid through the heads and midlanes cleanly, but still have a tremendous amount of friction generation capabilities as the ball enters the buff or exits the pattern.


However, as the ball encounters normal use, these peaks slowly flatten and the valleys collapse. If measured after normal use, the once high Ra and Rs numbers would be much lower than the previous out of box finish. Hence, the ball slowly loses ball reaction with each use. Cleaning the surface will help keep the ball reaction consistent and also break down lane oil, but it isn’t capable of restoring original out of box Ra and Rs values. Luckily, our research has found a fairly simple method to restore the out of box finish.


In order to restore these numbers, abralon pads are recommended for virtually every ball in our current or past production line. The easiest and fastest way to refinish the ball is to use a 360 grit abralon pad on the ball. If the ball is being finished by machine, 60 seconds is usually sufficient whereas other methods may take longer. The whole idea is to thoroughly, cut, scar and groove the surface of the ball with the 360 grit pad. Before finishing the 360 grit, make sure the entire surface of the ball has been evenly cut. If it is done by hand or by a ball spinner, a cross-hatch finish is recommended. For the next stage, very lightly sand the surface with a 500 grit abralon pad. This will lower the Ra and Rs values slightly, but it isn’t going to completely destroy the surface deviations created from the previous stage.


After the ball has been lightly sanded with 500 grit abralon, please skip directly to the original out of box finish. For example a 4000 grit finish, no polish would require using a 360 grit abralon pad, then light application of a 500 abralon pad finally, skip the 1000 and 2000 stages and go directly to the 4000 finish. The 360 and 500 grit abralon pads will reproduce the original deep grooves and cuts from the factory rounding and finishing process setting the foundation for the final finish. Then, by skipping directly to the 4000 grit abralon stage, the surface will be smoothed and ‘polished’ without destroying the surface deviations. This effectively leaves the surface with the high peaks and deep valleys, but they aren’t as sharp or jagged. This should restore the original ball reaction allowing the ball to skid on oil, read the lighter buff areas of the pattern and still have amazing recovery potential on the backend.


For polished balls, reproduce the 360 and 500 grit finish and then apply Storm Step 2 Finishing Compound. This is the exact same finishing compound we use on all of our 1500 grit polished balls. The trick to the polish application is to use less polish and very light pressure. Step 2 Finishing Compound has a resurfacing medium in it that sands the ball while it is being polished over-application of the compound will effectively destroy the same surface deviations that originally gave the ball it’s strong out of box finish.


The key to restoring any finish is deeply cutting the ball with the fresh 360 grit abralon pad and then very lightly applying a 500 grit pad. The same is true of the final step as well. Over-application of the 1000, 2000, or 4000 grit pads can destroy the surface deviations created by the 360 and 500 steps weakening the over-all ball reaction.


Hopefully, if the sanding process has been repeated successfully, the end results will yield a ball with nearly the exact same Ra and Rs values originally found on the out of box finish restoring life back into the ball.
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
  #4  
Old 11-09-2009, 06:24 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Very good info revz you answered my problem on why I couldn`t get a cell pearl back to oob I was taking it to 1500 and then polish but I understand now that that the compound takes it up from the 500 to a 1500 grit with light a polish.Now my question is are all ball companies like this with the polished finishes or just storm?It seems like they would be a little more accurate with there description of coverstock finishes so customers would be able to easily be able to refinish back to oob.I would assume most people would apply polish when indead you need to be using compound.

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
  #5  
Old 11-09-2009, 06:30 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

The Ra Rs thing is kind of new and much more precise than just shiny, matte, dull. As for polish, different polishes for different reactions. I use compound a good bit, but I also use high gloss polish a lot too.

I am guessing here that a rough compound has more ability to cut the surface and alter the Ra and Rs than a high gloss micro-abrasive polish would.
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 11-09-2009, 06:43 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Thats good info.Anybody that just bought a ball spinner from Innovative like me should defiantly read this I was getting frustated and I understand much better now. I will defiantly be getting some compound to try next.

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:28 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Great information
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
  #8  
Old 11-10-2009, 01:44 AM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

i glad you put that up there

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 11-10-2009, 06:33 AM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

So now that you have posted this, anyone have linkage to a compound they recomend?

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
  #10  
Old 11-10-2009, 07:51 AM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Innovative Bowling Products sells all of the Storm compounds and polishes as well as compounds and polishes from other companies.

Every ball spinner we sell comes complete with a 32 page manual and DVD that explains how to achieve the desired reaction you are looking for based on your bowling style, the type of ball you are using and for the enviornment you are using it in (dry lanes - oily lanes, wood - synthetic). It also explains in detail, for those that are not pro shop operators, how to understand ball motion. It is one thing to have someone tell you that you do not have the right ball in your hand (bad ball motion) but it is another thing to understand why and if you do not have the right ball in your hand what changes you need to make to get great ball motion.

It was important to me to not just sell you a machine that you could use to alter ball surfaces but to give you the knowledge of how to do it and why all in a format that was simple to understand and made total sense to anyone who takes the time to read it and. The system works. I have proven it over and over from every skill level of bowler from beginner to national touring professional.

My personal cell phone number and e-mail address are included with the system. If anyone has any questions they can contact me directly and I will help you. Even if you do not buy anything from Innovative I will still help you. E-mail me at John@InnovativeBowling.com

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 11-10-2009, 08:18 AM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

I use to put turtle wax on my plastic ball back in the day. Great information!
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
  #12  
Old 11-10-2009, 11:33 AM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Awsome info Rev, just hope I can remember all this.

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 11-10-2009, 11:39 AM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Good info guys, but it kinda got me wondering about the ball polishers at the bowling alley because I've been guilty of using them from time to time. Could this maybe be a no-no, I haven't seen much of a differance in my normal league, but I"ve definitley lost some hook in my pba x-perance league

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 11-10-2009, 11:56 AM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Can this be posted like the grit charts for easy access w/o searching for it everytime?

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 11-10-2009, 03:15 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

I have made the thread sticky in the coverstock preparation forum and will add it to the scrolling BBE news and resources module in the right column of the home page. Thanks for starting a great discussion, Free Agent!
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 11-10-2009, 03:22 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Woo Whoo! I knew it was a good idea to puncuate.
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:26 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Rock on Revz

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:39 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

As always, top notch info from Revz.
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 07-26-2010, 07:08 AM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

great info i wonder if it will work for my rhino pro i hate the idea of retiring that ball

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 07-26-2010, 05:40 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

So bowlers will understand what a bowling ball surface looks like under a magnifying glass, the closest description would be cement. Some of the newer equipment is beginning to look like moon craters, complete with the "picks" on the edge of the crater.

Bowling ball polish does very little to alter the actual surface of the ball, imagine trying to polish cement with ball polish. But, the polish does create a glossy surface which decreases friction on oil. I guess a person could put too much polish on and clog the pores, for the most part, if the polish is applied properly the rs and ra values are intact.

What if a bowler does not have enough speed to get a porous ball down the lane? Sometimes, we recommend putting the ball into a ball cleaning machine. The wax used in this type of machine is not a polish, it's more like solid block of candle wax. The wax is applied by bumping a solid piece of wax into a rotating buffing wheel, the buffing wheel then comes in contact with the ball. Depending on how the machine is calibrated, the application of this type of wax can change the rs and ra values of the coverstock. If you can imagein, it's kind of like pouring candle wax over the surface of the ball and then trying to remove it.

We've experimented with many different methods of bowling ball surface changes. It should also be noted, changing the direction of the sanding and or polishing direction will greatly alter the way the ball responds as it's going down the lane. Another factor to consider, there is a certain amount of heat generated when spinning a ball, it is critical to use a fairly fresh piece of sand paper with as little pressure as possible.

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Last edited by TomaHawk; 05-23-2013 at 07:06 PM.

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:35 AM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

I have an eight year old Jykle that I've resurfaced/sanded and polished dozens of times and that baby still hooks/reacts like the day I got it. Shot a three with it in '09. Its still my go to ball when the Red Death or the Pink aint treat'n my right (which is not very often)

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:59 PM
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Question Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Could "cross-hatch finish" be explained for me please? Think it has something to do with the ball's track? Thanks.

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:12 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjames View Post
Could "cross-hatch finish" be explained for me please? Think it has something to do with the ball's track? Thanks.
That is where the sanding lines are at 90 degrees to each other. It would be like sanding a piece of wood lengthwise and then doing it again crosswise. the point is not to sand the original sanding grooves out the second time, but to create cross groves.

On a bowling ball, you would position the ball in the spinner using the gripping holes as a reference point. Holes on top, then holes on bottom, then holes on the side facing you, and then rotate the ball from the holes so they go over the top and to the opposite side.
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:12 PM
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Thumbs up Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Thanks RevZ! Jim

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:11 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Is it a stupid question to ask whether this information applies to just Storm balls??

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:36 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

This is a valid method for any bowling ball. Since this method was published, manufacturers have also learned to enhance friction with the chemical structure designed into the ball...so called super covers.
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:08 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

I have had extremely good luck getting things back to an OOB in my experiences. I go by some very simple rules.

A light resurface may be hitting it with a final pad and then applying polish - this is for very minor scuffing where you really don't need to prep the whole ball.. in this case I might go 15 seconds a side.....just enough ot fix what I am trying to.

A medium resurface is hitting th eball with 500 then final abralon (this doesn't apply to all balls...the toughest to return to OOB for me have always been the 6421 from Lane #1 - It can be done....but usually this require a complete resurface. On medium I go from 30 second up to a minute depending on level of resurface.

A complete resurface it to pull out gouges, scratches.....I usually start with a 180 or 360, I have used a 240 once....but 180 or 360 is the standard. I do this for 45-60 sconds per side - all 6 sides. Then 500 for 30-45 a side, and wrap up with the final abralon level for 45-60 seconds a side.

For polish I go for a few different things. Valentinos typically does everything I need from a polish, I use Snake oil or UFO Snake oil for a pearl or shine where I want a decent reaction or UFO when I want it to slide.

I do use The Secret sauce sometimes, and various others. I have not had a need for rough buff from brunswick....but it is probably the one I could have access to that would help.

I have only had to rejuvenate 2 balls and one was purely out of curiosity.....I am sure if I had a lot more speed that might be necessary more often.

I haven't found a ball that I have altered that I have not been able to return to OOB, that said I rarely alter a surface just to alter it. I only alter it when necessary or if I have a duplicate ball (that is just a personal thing).

I have had my own spinner for close to 2 years and use it several times a month....depending on what I am doing, sometimes I am using it every few days.....unfortunately I am going to have to figure out where I can do it in my new place (it is kind of fancy (not by choice more by luck) and the garage is not condusive......may just have to do it in the day time outside......who knows!), if anyone needs some help with something let me know....I have taken some pretty ugly looking balls and made them look completely new. Even my proshop operator was impressed on a few of them and he does it more than I do!

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:26 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

This is all great information. I just bought myself an Innovative 1/2 HP Personal Spinner, so I'm going to try and resurface my first ball. I've read about the 6-sides to a bowling ball using your inserts as a guide. Based on your recommendations, I'm going to resurface my Ebonite Innovate using 180, 500, 2000, and then finish it off with the Powerhouse Factory Finish.

Thanks to all for providing this very valuable information.

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:19 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

I had my ball spinner delivered as well and love it.

I have been cleaning my equipment after each session now (as well as my wife's).

In General, how long are you guys keeping your Abralon pads? Is it the same as the old sand paper sheets? That you would use them until you could "feel" they were balded?

The first thing I did was bring all of our equipment back to OOB. Then I adjusted for the lane condition I expected to use the ball. On my wifes equipment I brought her stuff up-in-surface one level for each of hers as she is speed dominant.
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:28 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by black143 View Post
This is all great information. I just bought myself an Innovative 1/2 HP Personal Spinner, so I'm going to try and resurface my first ball. I've read about the 6-sides to a bowling ball using your inserts as a guide. Based on your recommendations, I'm going to resurface my Ebonite Innovate using 180, 500, 2000, and then finish it off with the Powerhouse Factory Finish.

Thanks to all for providing this very valuable information.
When I first got my Vertex spinner several years ago and began sanding my balls, I over-did it a bit by pressing too hard on the sand paper and scotch-brite pads. (Abralon and Saair Pads weren't available back then) I didn't realize I was doing this uintil Charlest brought it to my attention. I then lightened up on the presure and have had great results ever since. (also makes the sanding pads last longer also)

In case you don't have experience sanding a ball, the only reason I have said what I did here is to make you aware it doesn't take much pressure on a pad to sand a ball and hopefully you won't over do it like I did the first few times.
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 05-23-2013, 07:06 PM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

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Originally Posted by Brickguy221 View Post
When I first got my Vertex spinner several years ago and began sanding my balls, I over-did it a bit by pressing too hard on the sand paper and scotch-brite pads. (Abralon and Saair Pads weren't available back then) I didn't realize I was doing this uintil Charlest brought it to my attention. I then lightened up on the presure and have had great results ever since. (also makes the sanding pads last longer also)

In case you don't have experience sanding a ball, the only reason I have said what I did here is to make you aware it doesn't take much pressure on a pad to sand a ball and hopefully you won't over do it like I did the first few times.
Much appreciate the information. I'll be sure to use light pressure, as you've indicated.
Do you recommend using the 4-side or 6-side method? The video provided by Innovative appears to be only 2-sided and there are numerous threads going around about the possibility of leaving flat spots on the ball.

Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:45 AM
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Re: Learned something interesting from a storm rep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by black143 View Post
Much appreciate the information. I'll be sure to use light pressure, as you've indicated.
Do you recommend using the 4-side or 6-side method? The video provided by Innovative appears to be only 2-sided and there are numerous threads going around about the possibility of leaving flat spots on the ball.
I do 4 sides and cross hatch the lines unless I am going to do a major sanding job, then I will do 6 sides but other than that I only do 4 sides.
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