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Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #1  
Old 02-16-2010, 08:44 PM
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Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide



Pin placement:
Zones 1/6 = low flare and weaker reaction
Zones 2/5 = medium flare and medium strength reaction
Zones 3/4 = high flare and strong reaction

As you move the PIN from 0” to 6 3/4” to your PAP, or from zone 1 to zone 6 with your pin placement, you raise the RG of the core. As you get closer to zone 1, the RG is lowered.

Moving the PIN to your PAP results in the ball revving up the quickest. Moving the pin to 6 3/4” from your PAP will result in the ball revving the slowest.

Decreasing the angle from the PIN to your VAL (not to go less than 5 degrees) and/or raising the PIN, CG and/or ending CG closer to your upper VAL line will make the ball roll later. Placing the PIN, CG and/or ending CG within zones 2 thru 5, will result in a more defined breakpoint when encountering dry boards.

Lowering the PIN, starting CG and/or ending CG closer to or below your midline, or increasing their angles to your VAL will make the ball roll earlier and result in a smoother transition when encountering dry boards.

The angle between the PIN and CG (for symmetrical balls), in relationship to the line from your PIN to PAP (as shown at 45 degrees in zone #4 on this chart) is called the secondary core angle. Or, from the PIN and MB (for intermediate Diff. balls).

In symmetrical balls with no MB markings, you can disregard the core angle, (i.e. 45 degrees and the MB markings on the chart) and just use the standard method of referring to the PIN and CG in inch distances to your PAP.

Reducing the secondary core angle, or moving the starting CG closer to your PAP than the PIN, will make the ball roll later. When increasing the angle, or moving the starting CG farther away from the PAP than the PIN, the ball will roll earlier.

Moving the ending CG to your PAP will delay the roll of the ball and produce a stronger, more even, late hook on the backend. As the ending CG is moved farther from your PAP, from zone 1 to zones 3-4, the ball will start to pick up sooner in the midlane, resulting in an earlier, stronger hook/arc. As the ending CG moves from zone 4 to zone 6, the ending mass rolls more end over end, resulting in a hook set type of reaction on the backend. The ending CG, when at 45 degrees, gives you the perfect balance of slide, roll and hook.

When the ending CG, PIN and/or starting CG are rotating in conjunction with each other, ball reaction is amplified.

Holes on the positive side of the ball will make the ball start hooking sooner. Holes on the neg. side of the ball will make the ball hook later.

Last edited by Mr Buzzsaw; 02-16-2010 at 09:23 PM.

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #2  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:47 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

We received the gradient scale in a Lane #! box...Good stuff...Combines all the common terminology with the new...

Question, I've never placed the weight hole on the negative side of the ball...Without USBC's intricate evaluation system, I am only assuming that a hole in this location would cause a ball to "push"...

What Kegel condition would this be effective on?

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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #3  
Old 02-17-2010, 12:10 AM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Good Stuff Richie! I actually took the drill recommend sheet posted above and put it on our wall at our shop so the customers can see it. That one piece of paper is a conversation starter in the shop.
Everyone that reads it always has a comment or two about it and said it's not like back in the day.
It doesn't get any simpler then that!
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #4  
Old 02-17-2010, 05:03 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomaHawk View Post
We received the gradient scale in a Lane #! box...Good stuff...Combines all the common terminology with the new...

Question, I've never placed the weight hole on the negative side of the ball...Without USBC's intricate evaluation system, I am only assuming that a hole in this location would cause a ball to "push"...

What Kegel condition would this be effective on?

--
TomaHawk
Adding side weight and/or moving the CG closer to your PAP, with a hole on the track side of the ball will make it go longer and/or "push" farther down the lane. That's the purpose of the hole, if you're ball is rolling too early from a label drill with no side weight.

A hole on the PAP side of the ball will make the ball roll earlier, as your taking away side weight and/or moving the ending CG closer to your track.

I'm not familiar with the Kegel conditions, as they are not used up in my neck of the woods.

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #5  
Old 02-17-2010, 07:23 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

The thing that kind of confuses me is the difference in reaction for asymmetrical vs. symmetrical balls with certain layouts. It is my understanding that on a symmetrical ball if that this chart would hold true, but on an asymmetrical ball the further the pin from pap the more flare you'd get. For example, a 6" pin to pap on a symmetrical ball would produce little flare, but on an asymmetrical ball a 6" pin to pap would produce a lot of flare. Is this true? If so, can this chart be used for both types of balls?
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #6  
Old 02-17-2010, 08:29 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide



Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #7  
Old 02-17-2010, 10:38 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tywithay View Post
The thing that kind of confuses me is the difference in reaction for asymmetrical vs. symmetrical balls with certain layouts. It is my understanding that on a symmetrical ball if that this chart would hold true, but on an asymmetrical ball the further the pin from pap the more flare you'd get. For example, a 6" pin to pap on a symmetrical ball would produce little flare, but on an asymmetrical ball a 6" pin to pap would produce a lot of flare. Is this true? If so, can this chart be used for both types of balls?
I would say that it would be MORE effective on Symmetrical cored gear, while the Dual Angle Layout Technique has been shown to be more effective on Asymmetrical cored gear, though applicable to Symmetrical cored gear also.

I suspect the difference in flare properties has something to do with the relative strength of the PSA, post drilling. I dare say the PSA in Asymmetrical cored equipment is WAY stronger than that in Symmetrical cored equipment, but thats just a guess. An educated on at that.
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #8  
Old 02-18-2010, 01:23 AM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

this ball layout sheet is for the basic of basic bowlers and also for lane 1 balls only i don't think i have any ball that would fit this sheet for nothing what is it based off of?

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #9  
Old 02-18-2010, 01:25 AM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

did I read your chart correct? You said increasing your pin to cg angle in relation to your pin to pap will make the ball roll earlier? Is this for symmetrical only? or are you saying this for assymetrical as well? also the 45 degree angle being maximum, do you credit this to the Rico drill being so popular?

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #10  
Old 02-18-2010, 01:37 AM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

or raising the PIN, CG and/or ending CG closer to your upper VAL line will make the ball roll later. Placing the PIN, CG and/or ending CG within zones 2 thru 5, will result in a more defined breakpoint when encountering dry boards.

If I interpret this part of the chart correctly, the narrower this angle the later the ball will roll? Are you saying a large angle, as in the case of a Rico drill will roll earlier? I got the part where the pin being lower or closer to the midline will be smoother.

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #11  
Old 02-18-2010, 11:07 AM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

mr buzzsaw, are you going away from your gravity balance system?

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #12  
Old 02-18-2010, 12:02 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnes1 View Post
this ball layout sheet is for the basic of basic bowlers and also for lane 1 balls only i don't think i have any ball that would fit this sheet for nothing what is it based off of?
This drilling guide is for all balls, not just Lane #1. It incorporates all layout techniques into one easy to use chart. What it doesn't do is suggest balance hole size and locations. That's another animal in of itself.

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #13  
Old 02-18-2010, 12:18 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Richie, did I interprete the chart wrong? I understand it to say smaller pin to pap to cg angles make the ball go longer. also smaller pin to pap to val make the ball go longer. This is totally opposite to what Mo says in the dual angle instructions.

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:19 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by elgavachon View Post
did I read your chart correct? You said increasing your pin to cg angle in relation to your pin to pap will make the ball roll earlier? Is this for symmetrical only? or are you saying this for assymetrical as well? also the 45 degree angle being maximum, do you credit this to the Rico drill being so popular?
You read this correctly. Increaing the angle from the pin to the CG or MB(drillilng angle) makes the ball roll earlier. When a ball rolls earlier, it doesn't hook as much down the lane. This is for symmetrical and asymmetrical. As stated by others, all balls are asymmetrical after drilling, so take that for what it's worth.


What do you mean when you say "the 45 degree angle being maximum"?

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #15  
Old 02-18-2010, 12:22 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

I just took it from the bottom of your chart. maybe I interpreted it wrong here is the quote
he ending CG, when at 45 degrees, gives you the perfect balance of slide, roll and hook.

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #16  
Old 02-18-2010, 12:38 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by elgavachon View Post
or raising the PIN, CG and/or ending CG closer to your upper VAL line will make the ball roll later. Placing the PIN, CG and/or ending CG within zones 2 thru 5, will result in a more defined breakpoint when encountering dry boards.

If I interpret this part of the chart correctly, the narrower this angle the later the ball will roll? Are you saying a large angle, as in the case of a Rico drill will roll earlier? I got the part where the pin being lower or closer to the midline will be smoother.
Balls that roll earlier roll smoother. There's a misconception on what roll is and it really isn't being explained properly throughout the industry, imo. When others say that a ball rolls earlier, what they're really saying is that it transitions quicker to dry boards. That's not roll or rolling earlier. Balls that go longer on oil, transition quicker when encountering friction. Balls that roll earlier transition slower to friction down the lane. This is the proper explaination, imo.

Higher pins is similar to having more finger weight in the ball. Everyone knows finger weight takes the ball longer down the lane and thumb weight makes the ball roll earlier. You can't change physics, but some people want to change terminology on things which now makes it confusing for people to understand what's really happening.

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:49 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by elgavachon View Post
I just took it from the bottom of your chart. maybe I interpreted it wrong here is the quote
he ending CG, when at 45 degrees, gives you the perfect balance of slide, roll and hook.
OK, I don't see where anything says 45 being maximum. The rico layout gives you an earlier roll on the lane and a slower transition to dry down the lane. Basically it uses it's energy earlier and has a tendency to roll out in the pocket, if you will. Its' a good layout for wet dry and/or house shots.

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #18  
Old 02-18-2010, 12:50 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Buzzsaw View Post
Balls that roll earlier roll smoother. There's a misconception on what roll is and it really isn't being explained properly throughout the industry, imo. When others say that a ball rolls earlier, what they're really saying is that it transitions quicker to dry boards. That's not roll or rolling earlier. Balls that go longer on oil, transition quicker when encountering friction. Balls that roll earlier transition slower to friction down the lane. This is the proper explaination, imo.

Higher pins is similar to having more finger weight in the ball. Everyone knows finger weight takes the ball longer down the lane and thumb weight makes the ball roll earlier. You can't change physics, but some people want to change terminology on things which now makes it confusing for people to understand what's really happening.
so larger drilling angles (pin to pap to cg or mass bias) is like more negative (less snap when hitting dry) and smaller drilling angles is like more positive (more snap when hitting dry)?

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:58 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by elgavachon View Post
so larger drilling angles (pin to pap to cg or mass bias) is like more negative (less snap when hitting dry) and smaller drilling angles is like more positive (more snap when hitting dry)?
Exactamundo..!! Now, that's for bowlers who tend to roll the ball. Negative weight for spinners tends to snap more and positive weight snaps less, because the positive weight makes the ball go too long for spinners. Positive and negative weights give opposite ball reactions, depending on your release.

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
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Old 02-18-2010, 01:01 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Buzzsaw View Post
OK, I don't see where anything says 45 being maximum. The rico layout gives you an earlier roll on the lane and a slower transition to dry down the lane. Basically it uses it's energy earlier and has a tendency to roll out in the pocket, if you will. Its' a good layout for wet dry and/or house shots.
In your chart you said decreasing the angle to the val will make the ball roll later. What you meant was it will react like more positive? using your finger wt. example. Then the large val angle on the rico is like negative. Then you are talking same as Mo on the val angle I was just confused by the terminology.

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
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Old 02-18-2010, 01:11 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Buzzsaw View Post
Exactamundo..!! Now, that's for bowlers who tend to roll the ball. Negative weight for spinners tends to snap more and positive weight snaps less, because the positive weight makes the ball go too long for spinners. Positive and negative weights give opposite ball reactions, depending on your release.
so you would use large drilling angles (negative type skid) for a person who spins the ball to try to bring in to a roll sooner?

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #22  
Old 06-26-2010, 01:14 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

I appreciate both of the graphs that were displayed. It has helped me understand what all of the equipment that I have is supposed to do vs the way I'm throwing it down the lane. I will study this more so I don't make a mistake in trying to do something that the ball is not layed out to do. Understanding my equipment will help me maximize it's potential.

Can you guys explain something for me, but what is ending CG as mentioned in the Lane #1 guide? Is it the MB? Because it really doesn't get into much detail about what the MB affect has on the ball

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #23  
Old 06-26-2010, 01:33 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Ending CG is EXACTLY as it reads: The final location of the CG. The CG is the end point of a line drawn through the geometric center of the ball through the ACTUAL CG and extended to the surface of the ball. Now while this might several inches from the equator on the surface of the ball (with the PIN as the North Pole, as it were), in reality, it's only fractions of a millimeter (25mm ≈ 1in).

Every time you drill a hole in the ball, you shift the CG. Again, bear in mind that the ACTUAL shift will only be fractions of a mm in reality, while we might see a few inches of movement on the surface. Where the CG ends up once ALL the holes have been drilled (including balance holes) is the ending CG.

I may have confused you a little, but I wanted to be thorough. My feet are FIRMLY planted in the "CG don't matter (much)" camp.

The effect of the MB (PSA) is more significant than the CG, in my opinion. If you draw a line from the pin to the PSA, this line is known as the "Pin-to-Spin" line. Now, as we all know, the axis of rotation migrates along the surface of the ball (Note: The first axis of rotation is you PAP). This is what causes track flare, right? Basically, the LONGER it takes for the migrating PAP to cross that line, the longer the ball will skid down the lane. Being a strong proponent of Dual angle layouts, this is dictated by the Drilling angle. The greater the drilling angle, the longer the migrating PAP has to go to reach the pin-to-spin line, the longer the first transition, the longer the ball goes down lane before it starts to transition, the later the break point. Pretty simple correlation, don't you think? Simply put, the further away MB is from BOTH the PIN and the PAP, the longer the ball will go down the lane before it reaches its break point.
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Last edited by kellytehuna; 06-26-2010 at 02:05 PM. Reason: Added info about PSA and Pin-to-spin line

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
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Old 06-26-2010, 01:44 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Kelly, I appreciate the explanation. I was a Chemical Engineering major (didn't finish school though), but I'm able to keep up with the technical jargon around here a little. I actually love reading it. I think it's been my fault that I haven't really applied all of the school knowledge I have more to bowling. But from what you were explaining, I'm understanding that once a ball is poured, what is stamped on the ball (pin and cg markers) are @ that time. So I can see when you say when holes are placed into the ball, that the cg changes. The holes create an imbalance, correct? So the cg has shifted as a result of mass being displaced and a new center of balance needs to be marked? What is it when I hear people say that CG doesn't matter? Is it because of the emphasis on surface and MB location (again, the MB is something else I need to read and understand more).

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #25  
Old 06-26-2010, 01:51 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8vX_...ure=grec_index

this a video about some CG relevance......

For the record I have no opinion on the matter, I am not educated enough on the subject

Last edited by Drouills; 06-26-2010 at 02:10 PM.

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #26  
Old 06-26-2010, 02:04 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

I added a little more information about the MB (or Preferred Spin Axis (PSA)) to my post above.

The whole "CG don't matter" argument, is one that's been raging for some time now. I don't really want to dredge it up again, because it tends to get heated, especially since Ritchie is a strong proponent of CG does matter!

In short, there are those among us that say that you can control the final reaction by placing the CG in different quadrants on the ball. Meanwhile, there are others that would say that while this might be the case, there a bigger things going on than just the final placement of the CG.

This argument is actually the impetus to the research that is either about to be started or pending sometime in the next year or so, in to exactly how strong an affect static weights have on the final ball reaction. If it turns out that they play a minimal role, we could see static weights pretty much eliminated (or at least the limits widened) in the near future.

This is a good thing, I feel as it would mean we would no longer require balance holes to keep the ball legal and just use them as reaction tweakers Fun times! AND we would be able to get rid of those pesky scales.

There is plenty of research stating the affect of the total differential (flare potential) and intermediate differential (speed of response to friction) on the final ball reaction.

All that being said, please remember that by far the most important factors in ball reaction are the physical properties of the cover and the surface preparation, which is just a modifier of those physical properties. That was shown by the recent ball motion study by the USBC.
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #27  
Old 06-26-2010, 02:23 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

great information there kellytehuna! I really do appreciate it...with the advise I'm seeking about my release, I'm starting to feel that this working knowledge about bowling ball dynamics and other relevances that you guys are providing here will drastically help me get better. Please don't mind me if I start asking a lot of questions, but I know everyone has there own opinions, but comparison and contrast is prevelent in society. Thanks again!

Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
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Old 06-26-2010, 02:24 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Yes all of this has been very informative..
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide
  #29  
Old 06-26-2010, 02:44 PM
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Re: Ball Reaction/Drilling Guide

Yeah, man. Ask away. If I can help, I will. If I can't, there will no doubt be people here that will be able to answer your questions for you.
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